Understanding the Basics of Leaning

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AKar
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by AKar »

To me, these mishaps point to entirely different problem. The fact that we can't focus on the tasks that actually matter regardless of whether there are competiting priorities or not (we seem to be clever in finding some!) is not the least one in human factors field, however, it seems to be so that the issue is relatively independent on how much we 'help' the operator: rudimentary instrumentation and lack of automation subjects one to skill based errors while abundance of presumably correct information and automation makes us prone to lack of attention and misinterpretations as we tend to get too comfortable about the very primary task.

I don't think it would be too difficult to teach an early student to ignore the engine monitor unless it alarms or shows different - in which case, just abort the flight. It appeared to be easy enough to teach them, like it was to teach us who studied maintenance stuff, to ignore various other stuff to some other's annoyance! The mindset of understanding that there are better things to concentrate is relatively easy to pass on to someone. But in my honest opinion, after a given amount of time, if one can't handle the equipment he uses to the extent that its underlying faults and problems must actually be hidden from him, acknowledging that a possible failure is safer than letting him know that something is wrong, then I think there is something wrong in the education system. I don't know, maybe the ignorance is bliss indeed? Is it like when I attempted to tell to someone, who had measured some 160 volts or so from a ceiling lightning plug switched off, that it actually was kind a correct measurement - like the measured zero volts in appropriate low-Z mode of the multimeter was too. In my mindset, if one cannot deal with ghost voltages, it is not a fault in multimeter, but a lack of understanding of the very basics of the instrument - easily fixed by a bit of education and an example, but a stupid thing to hide by crippling our instruments!

Interesting discussion, though bit off the original topic! :) Maybe we should start an aviation philosophy corner as an own topic?

-Esa

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Levkovvvv
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by Levkovvvv »

You are right, we are on a good path to highjacking this topic, so I think we should leave it at this. Aviation philosophy corner will be created eventually, it is one of those topics that just naturally appears in places where you have enthusiasts with excess of knowledge and free time :P Speaking of mixtures and leaning, I have a (maybe) stupid question. Why can I hop in a 1941 Spitfire and set my mixture control to auto rich or auto lean and I can't do the same thing in a 1960 Comanche? :D
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Image Владимир Левков / Vladimir Levkov
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AKar
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by AKar »

That has been wondered. :mrgreen: Someone I once knew who teached both technical stuff but occasionally flying things too joked how he was annoyed by the students asking this kind of questions - making topics of the lessons look stupid, and the teachers even more because they couldn't definitely answer those! :mrgreen: Aviation pistons lost so much knowledge when the last big radials were retired, the internet era should bring that data back while many of engineers, pilots, and other folks are still here to discuss the matter.

For purists of course, the mixture lever gives one more basic control to be set per situation and needs, however, I think they start to become like me, a proper, manual gearbox only kind of driver, who needs to admit that DSG does better job for most of the time.... :mrgreen:

-Esa

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Levkovvvv
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by Levkovvvv »

As far as I understand, auto mixtures had an aneroid that automatically adjusted the mixture with altitude change. And for redundancy sake, they couldd make one of those auto rich-auto lean-manual lean-cutoff types of mixtures (some yugoslav planes, utva 66 notably, had a button on the mixture lever that had to be pushed prior to moving the lever to cutoff, that might also be a good idea), and put them in GA planes, so you can still do it manually if you wish, but you can also let the automatics do its thing :D

We have a joke here in Serbia about clutch being the "man pedal" so if your car doesn't have one.... xD And on rare occasions when I had to drive an automatic tranny car, I actually used the sequential (shift up-shift down) part of it just to prevent the computer from telling me what to do :P
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Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by Nick - A2A »

Interesting conversation chaps. :) I'll try not to sidetrack things (again :oops: ) but Mike Busch does give his perspective on the 'gadgetry distraction' thing here.
Mike Busch wrote:Anytime I've installed a nifty new item of electronics on my instrument panel, I've found that I tend to get preoccupied with the new black box and let my scan go to hell. That certainly happened when I first put in the Garmin GNS-530 and again when I added the Sandel SN3308. Sure enough, when first I installed my engine monitor two years ago, I found myself spending waaaaay too much time fixated on the new instrument.

Part of the solution to this problem lies in getting familiar and comfortable enough with the instrument that you can absorb its data display or change modes in just a few seconds. The other part is achieved by programming the unit's alarm limits so that it will demand your attention anytime something unusual is going on with your engine(s).
In other words, any new toy in the cockpit is going to be a potential source of distraction until one learns to use it comfortably and judiciously. For instance, the sophisticated Garmin GPS units are clearly a real aid to safety, but Garmin specifically provides free software so that customers can practice getting to grips with all those myriad features at their PC with a cup of coffee.

At any rate, I'm never likely to be overly distracted by leaning in the sim because striving for ultimate economy/range doesn't really interest me all that much. :mrgreen: Even when I'm driving and have to actually pay for real fuel, I don't pay as much attention to the MPG readout as I should :oops: . As Esa says, I'm pretty sure it would improve if I had a DSG gearbox though...

Cheers,
Nick
A2A Simulations Inc.

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afcraig2010
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by afcraig2010 »

My findings are pretty much the same as the original post by Esa. Lean until it runs rough and then enrichen it a little bit. Done. Just watch your CHTs and oil temps. Even with the fuel flow gauge on the Comanche, the numbers didn't line up very well and I trust the EGT gauge more than the fuel flow on a carbureted engine. Sounds very realistic, too.
Craig
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afcraig2010
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by afcraig2010 »

Trying to keep all these leaning questions under one main topic so I didn't create a new topic for this.

I've got some questions and made a video to cover what I'm trying to figure out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFvzxI9 ... e=youtu.be

All the questions are posed in the video, but I've typed them out here as well:

1) When I lean until the engine runs rough, it won't run rough until it's about 100RPM shy of the cruise setting I had it at. (I think that's because the sim fuel injectors have a more even distribution than they would in real life. Maybe?) When it does run rough, and then slightly push it in (so about 50RPM shy ish) that's about peak. My first question is, if I continue to lean, the RPM goes down and so does the EGT. Is this lean of peak? Or just the EGT going back down since the engine is producing less power, RPM?

2) When I lean using the method above, am I supposed to add throttle to make up for that approx 100RPM drop? 2.1) When I do that, the EGT goes down slightly (rich of peak) where I don't want it.

3) This is more of an observation and maybe a survey question to see how it lines up for you guys. Setting the plane and atmosphere up to where I had it in the video (clear weather, standard day temp/pressure, 4000ft, 2200RPM, 8.1GPH) I get an EGT that is about 10-15 degrees rich of peak. It peaks when I pull the mixture back a bit more to 7.1GPH which lines up with about 2120RPM.
-I guess a question to pull from this is, how do they get their fuel flows for the cruise performance chart? Do they lean to peak EGT? Or to that point and then rich again a bit?

4) What gauge to trust more? Fuel flow or EGT? I side with fuel flow because I've been told that the meter for it is just a gear spinning and measuring the flow (obviously) whereas the EGT is only connected to one cylinder, but I guess it would at least be accurate for that one cylinder. And is the fuel flow gauge in the 172R as reliable as the one in the Comanche? Does fuel injected vs carbureted matter for that question?

These are much finer point questions and it shows my lack of mechanical knowledge, which I'm trying to improve on. I figured this is a good place to ask this. Also, is the EGT/engine behavior depicted in the sim(in the video) realistic/proper to real world? I'm a real pilot but I've never paid THIS much attention. I blame CFIs :P and I'm trying to be a better CFI for future pilots.
Craig
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AKar
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Re: Understanding the Basics of Leaning

Post by AKar »

I'm unable to check the video right away, but I'll try to quickly answer your questions.
afcraig2010 wrote:1) When I lean until the engine runs rough, it won't run rough until it's about 100RPM shy of the cruise setting I had it at. (I think that's because the sim fuel injectors have a more even distribution than they would in real life. Maybe?) When it does run rough, and then slightly push it in (so about 50RPM shy ish) that's about peak. My first question is, if I continue to lean, the RPM goes down and so does the EGT. Is this lean of peak? Or just the EGT going back down since the engine is producing less power, RPM?
The peak EGT in practice typically refers to the highest EGT value you can achieve by moving only the mixture control. Of course, if I would find the peak for instance, and then push in some power, the EGTs may still rise (or drop, depending), kind of redefining the peak EGT. The current leaning simulation is a bit interesting in that it allows for rather lean mixtures, well lean of peak in fuel-injected engines, to run very smooth but it will still start to sputter eventually. I'd figure if the engine has a good-enough mixture distribution to run as lean as these do, it would quite smoothly lose power and eventually, maybe with just a hint of some roughness over transition, flame out if leaned far enough.
afcraig2010 wrote:2) When I lean using the method above, am I supposed to add throttle to make up for that approx 100RPM drop? 2.1) When I do that, the EGT goes down slightly (rich of peak) where I don't want it.
As before, the peak EGT is determined by the mixture control alone. If you move the other control(s), you would find the peak again, as it is "redefined" with the power setting. Typically I don't think you would add throttle to recover the lost power, but set the other controls first and then lean. Not sure about particular pilot techniques in this one - of course, you can do that, just if the engine reaches higher power setting with your new mixture. However, note that quite often you are already at full throttle when cruising a naturally aspirated airplane.
afcraig2010 wrote:-I guess a question to pull from this is, how do they get their fuel flows for the cruise performance chart? Do they lean to peak EGT? Or to that point and then rich again a bit?
It varies quite a bit, typically it says something like "economy lean mixture" in the chart information, and then you would need to check out the specific airplane's handbook method for finding that - and to hope they are consistent with each other!
afcraig2010 wrote:4) What gauge to trust more? Fuel flow or EGT? I side with fuel flow because I've been told that the meter for it is just a gear spinning and measuring the flow (obviously) whereas the EGT is only connected to one cylinder, but I guess it would at least be accurate for that one cylinder. And is the fuel flow gauge in the 172R as reliable as the one in the Comanche? Does fuel injected vs carbureted matter for that question?
Well, EGT is highly reliable in finding the peak EGT, but it won't necessarily/typically give you that good absolute figures. Of course, the absolute figures are not that often needed, unless in some cases when going turbocharged. The "spinning-gear" type of flow meter is quite accurate, just if the indicator itself is calibrated properly. You find those in carburetted airplanes (when equipped with a fuel flow - often they are not), because they use quite low fuel pressures not allowing for the method commonly used with fuel injection, and in higher-end installations because they are, again, quite accurate. In fuel-injected airplanes one most typically finds a pressure-based indicator, calibrated to display a flow, as a factory installation. They rely on that the pressure in the line increases if a larger flow is forced into the same lines and injectors. They can be accurate too, but are more easily affected by various factors, for instance, an obstructed fuel injector will significantly rise your fuel flow indication. Note that any issue downstream will inherently cause them to err into the wrong direction: cut a line completely, and the pressure would drop - the indicator drops too even while the fuel is in reality streaming out from the cut line.

-Esa

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