VMC into IMC

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Great Ozzie
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by Great Ozzie »

After my first lesson, I was so... hmmm... maybe "total lack of confidence" a good way to put it, that I did not wish to continue the course. (It was a 50hr Private Pilot course at a University where my "minor" was the first two years of the "professional pilot" program.)

On a solo cross-country during that program (probably somewhere around the 100hr mark) I ran into unforecast severe turbulence on the way back to my home airport. I was so shaken by the experience that I walked into the asst. chief flight instructor's office and handed him my PPL saying, "I am done with flying." At that moment, I could not have been more "resolute" about that decision.

After becoming an instructor, I decided to take a 5hr "unusual attitudes" course. The day we went to do spins... well... on the way out to the practice area, just prior to doing the first spin, I was so incredibly terrified that I was ready to scream to the instructor, "Take me back I am not going to do this!!!".

But in every case, my love of Flight overpowered any trepidation that I knew was attempting to hinder me.

For example, with the spins, I just "hung on" i.e. just did my best to focus on nothing else but doing what the instructor said to do (man was that hard). After the first one I was like, "ok... ok... I got thru that." After the second one, "that wasn't so bad." After the third... "this is actually fun!" A tremendous confidence builder and really an incredible experience. In fact I would say, during that course my confidence and enjoyment of flying grew exponentially. It took flying to a whole new level for me.

So yeah, there were times I was very nervous / scared. Never more so in my entire life than with the spins mentioned above. But in every case I decided to take the next step and not quit.

As far as my first solo, it was relatively anticlimactic. That actually concerned me because I thought, "If I like flying so much, why was my first solo not such a big deal to me." :lol: What really reaches down into my soul is being able to share the "how-to" of flight. To me, flying is a lot of fun - a ton of work training - but still great fun. The real joy I get is in sharing it with someone. I got to sit next to somebody to assist them with this challenge, while I could fully experience the incredible wonder of flight. To me, there is nothing like combining those two things.
Piper_EEWL wrote:the instructor wouldn't have send you up alone if he or she wouldn't be convinced that you're ready.
That's right.

I wanted the student to feel they are ready. And I wasn't about to make a endorsement (for first solo in this case) if I was not completely confident the student could make the flight safely, legally and it was the next point in the process of goal they were trying to achieve.

-Rob
Rob Osborne
Flight Instructor - CFI, CFII, MEI, MEII
A & P Mechanic


FAASTeam - Safer Skies Through Education
Professionalism in aviation is the pursuit of excellence through discipline, ethical behavior and continuous improvement. NBAA

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Oracle427
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by Oracle427 »

No I was not scared on my first solo. I really wanted to do it and knew I was ready.

The first time I was really nervous was when I took my wife up for her first flight. If I messed up I knew she wouldn't do it again. Thankfully I didn't and we fly together all the time now.

If I have any doubts about my abilities I work with an instructor. My confidence has gone up a lot as I've trained under specific and increasingly difficult conditions. I do not stretch my abilities too far without first flying with an instructor.

During my first couple of flights I was a little jumpy at the new sounds and smells, but I got over it quickly. I don't get motion sick and love aerobatics so I feel very natural in unusual attitudes and stalls. Perhaps that sounds contradictory to being conservative with my abilities, but again I don't go outside what I have trained for.

After my PPL I got my tailwheel endorsement and then went on to do an advanced tail wheel program with a lot of of airport activity, skis in snow and very short fields that cannot be approached or departed straight in due to obstacles. Those lessons were great fun and confidence builders. The one time my heart really skippeda beat was when I almost ground looped the super cub and headed right for a snow bank. If the instructor had not been in there I would have crashed.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

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Oracle427
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by Oracle427 »

Edit: Fixed a bunch of typos and errors.

Yesterday was a real taste of what it feels like to be approaching the MVFR conditions. I flew from LDJ to MTP and back later in the afternoon with both legs along the south shore of Long Island. Conditions were very hazy all day.

This is the view at 3500 feet on the way to MTP around the Hamptons. Very Hazy! https://www.dropbox.com/s/phovuq8klj2ozyg/VFR.PNG?dl=0

The surface was relatively featureless especially over the ocean and while I could easily maintain contact with the island out the side window, it was difficult to make out land while looking ahead. At one point in my flight while cruising at 3500 feet I could make out an vague artificial horizon that was not quite level with the attitude indicator. Sneaky sneaky those clouds...

I knew with the extremely high humidity and very high temps hovering in the 30's that I was asking for trouble with storms as the afternoon turned to evening so I departed for home.

I asked my wife to take this picture to share with all of you because of how sinister these clouds look. The picture does not do justice to what I was saw on two sides. I had these big cumulus clouds embedded in haze ahead and to my right. There were clear forming cumulonimbus heads scattered among them. At the moment this picture was taken I was directly over JFK and at 6500 feet. The air was very smooth the entire time.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/53ks2kmh7fvy5 ... 0.jpg?dl=0

My Insight Strike Finder came to life for the first time and started showing lightning strikes as close as 150 miles to my north and the scope was completely full 200 miles to the north. It also showed a small number within 150 miles ahead. I learned today from a friend that lives up north that there was a tornado warning in that area where all the strikes were registering. What was strange is that the clouds appeared to be 10 miles away but never seemed to come any closer. By the time I landed at LDJ, the massive clouds could not be seen and I was under a canopy of wispy cirrus clouds. Clearly those massive cumulus clouds were out over PA.

http://insightavionics.com/strikefinder.htm

Check out these METARS during the time of my flight back.

To the north (yeah it's bad!)
KALB 192251Z 11010KT 10SM FEW020 SCT039 BKN050 BKN130 23/21 A2975 RMK AO2 RAE51 TSE44 SLP072 P0028 T02330206 $
KALB 192244Z 06007KT 9SM -RA SCT021 SCT039 BKN055 BKN130 23/21 A2976 RMK AO2 TSE44 PCPN VRY LGT P0028 T02330206 $
KALB 192228Z 12006KT 7SM -TSRA SCT013 BKN039CB BKN055 BKN130 23/21 A2974 RMK AO2 FRQ LTGICCG N-E-S TS N-E-S MOV E P0028 T02330211 $
KALB 192217Z VRB03KT 1SM R01/2600VP6000FT +TSRA FEW016 BKN039CB OVC050 23/21 A2977 RMK AO2 FRQ LTGICCG OHD TS OHD MOV E P0026 T02330206 $
KALB 192151Z 00000KT 3SM -TSRA BR SCT024 BKN038CB OVC045 23/21 A2972 RMK AO2 RAB03 SLP061 FRQ LTGICCG N-E-S TS N-E-S MOV E P0063 T02280206 $
KALB 192117Z COR 36014G22KT 3/4SM R01/3500VP6000FT +TSRA FEW033 SCT040CB BKN060 BKN130 BKN250 26/21 A2972
KALB 192051Z 17012G22KT 10SM TS FEW033 SCT040CB BKN065 BKN130 BKN250 28/19 A2970
KALB 191951Z 18013G18KT 10SM TS FEW033 SCT040CB SCT150 SCT250 32/23 A2974 RMK AO2 TSB28 SLP069 OCNL LTGICCG VC SE-SW TS VC SE-SW MOV E T03170233 $

KBDR 192152Z 20012KT 10SM CLR 29/23 A2974 RMK AO2 SLP070 T02940233
KBDR 192052Z 18006KT 10SM CLR 30/23 A2976 RMK AO2 SLP077 T03000233 58020
KBDR 191952Z 19008KT 10SM CLR 31/23 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP086 T03060228

KPOU 192153Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 33/21 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP060 T03280206
KPOU 192053Z AUTO VRB05KT 10SM CLR 34/20 A2973 RMK AO2 SLP063 T03390200 58020
KPOU 191953Z AUTO 26010KT 10SM FEW055 36/21 A2976 RMK AO2 SLP072 T03560211

KHPN 192256Z 18005KT 8SM FEW045 29/23 A2975 RMK AO2 SLP068 T02940233
KHPN 192156Z 17009KT 9SM FEW050 31/23 A2975 RMK AO2 SLP067 T03060233
KHPN 192056Z COR 18006KT 9SM FEW045 32/24 A2977 RMK AO2 SLP074 T03220239 58019
KHPN 191956Z 18008KT 9SM FEW080 33/23 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP082 T03280233

In the distance ahead
KABE 192151Z 25013G18KT 10SM CLR 32/21 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP079 T03220206 $
KABE 192051Z 23010KT 10SM CLR 32/22 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP085 T03220217 58015 $
KABE 191951Z 24008G16KT 10SM FEW049 33/22 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP094 T03330222 $

Area along my route back
KGON 192156Z 21009KT 9SM CLR 25/22 A2974 RMK AO2 SLP072 T02500217
KGON 192056Z 21008G15KT 9SM CLR 27/23 A2976 RMK AO2 PRESFR SLP077 T02720228 58021
KGON 191956Z 18004KT 10SM CLR 27/22 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP089 T02670217

KMTP 192154Z AUTO 21009G15KT 27/22 A2978 RMK AO1 SLP083 T02670222
KMTP 192054Z AUTO 22010G17KT 28/23 A2980 RMK AO1 SLP090 T02830228 58017
KMTP 191954Z AUTO 22007G17KT 29/23 A2981 RMK AO1 SLP095 T02940233

KISP 192256Z 21012KT 10SM FEW040 BKN200 BKN260 27/22 A2975 RMK AO2 SLP071 T02720217
KISP 192156Z 22013G20KT 10SM FEW040 SCT200 BKN260 29/22 A2975 RMK AO2 SLP073 T02890222
KISP 192056Z 21012KT 10SM FEW040 SCT200 SCT260 30/23 A2977 RMK AO2 SLP081 T03000228 58016
KISP 191956Z 21014KT 10SM FEW045 FEW200 FEW260 31/23 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP088 T03060228

KEWR 192251Z 25013G19KT 10SM FEW060 SCT200 BKN250 34/21 A2974 RMK AO2 SLP070 T03440206
KEWR 192151Z 24010G17KT 10SM FEW060 SCT200 BKN250 36/21 A2973 RMK AO2 SLP068 T03560206
KEWR 192051Z 27013G21KT 10SM SCT050 BKN200 BKN250 36/20 A2976 RMK AO2 SLP077 T03610200 58018
KEWR 191951Z 25010G17KT 10SM FEW040 SCT060 SCT200 BKN250 37/19 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP084 T03670194

KLDJ 192215Z AUTO 27009KT 10SM CLR 37/22 A2976 RMK AO2 T03670218
KLDJ 192155Z AUTO 28010G14KT 10SM CLR 37/21 A2976 RMK AO2 LTG DSNT SW T03650211
KLDJ 192135Z AUTO 27010KT 240V300 10SM CLR 37/22 A2977 RMK AO2 T03670217
KLDJ 192115Z AUTO 27008KT 10SM SCT055 37/22 A2978 RMK AO2 T03650216
KLDJ 192055Z AUTO 27006KT 10SM SCT060 38/22 A2978 RMK AO2 T03750217
KLDJ 192035Z AUTO 29008G14KT 10SM CLR 38/22 A2979 RMK AO2 T03750216
KLDJ 192015Z AUTO 26007G15KT 10SM CLR 38/21 A2980 RMK AO2 T03750208
KLDJ 191955Z AUTO 28008KT 10SM CLR 38/21 A2981 RMK AO2 T03770210

Notice the pressure dropping and somewhat fast? I made a note of that change as I spoke and listened to approach... But where the heck are those clouds I saw? It sure doesn't look like they were ahead looking at the data in these METARS. When I look at all of PA and NJ I can barely find any evidence of any clouds during that time period!

Looking at this history those clouds had to be quite some distance away, but they looked HUGE and up close! The fact is they were huge, much bigger than my little brain could comprehend so I couldn't trust my eyes to tell where they were located.

To make a long story longer, I landed uneventfully and taxied back to parking. I hung out for a while to polish up the airplane a little here and there and to fix a broken tie down rope only to be around when the guy that parks right behind me crashed on takeoff. Thankfully no one was hurt at all. It was really hot and he had 4 adult passengers so I suspect they couldn't climb out of ground effect. The article is wrong because those "children" were about my size. I didn't see the take off because I was washing my hands in the restroom.

http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2015/ ... rport.html

What a day...
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

William Hughes
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by William Hughes »

Some clouds have no "scale" - there are no visual clues to provide a size estimate. The texture of their turbulence makes it difficult to discern if they are huge and far away or close and small.

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pilottj
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by pilottj »

There is a simple solution to accidental VMC into IMC. It doesn't need a moving map or anything. Just your turn cordinator, and a timer. You know there is VMC behind you. Enter a standard rate turn using the TC. Hold the turn for a minute. Roll out, you will be headed the opposite direction. This was taught to me early on in my student training when given basic instruction on the 'six pack' for such cases of accidental IMC entry. This method works even if you have a DG/Vac failure.

Cheers
TJ
"The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams
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Oracle427
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by Oracle427 »

Looking at the stats and accident reports, it doesn't appear that pilots are flying into IMC accidentally. It is more a matter of poor planning and ignoring the rules and common sense. You read report after report of pilots flying well into IMC and after totally getting lost and disoriented they call for help when it is too late.

If only they followed the training that they received to execute an immediate 180/one minute turn.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

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Whitehawk
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by Whitehawk »

Lewis - A2A wrote:
Its interesting as esp in the US with Foreflight now having synthetic vision it should in theory start to help for those that get into IMC due to closing weather conditions etc.

thanks,
Lewis
Of cautionary note on this, it is very easy to use synthetic vision to "back up" the view out the window, the whole glass cockpit thing is nice and distracting especially with a TAS or TCAS added in hell I teach in aircraft with synthetic vision equipped PFDs, we don't allow students to use the GPS moving map until after they gain their PPL, but the synthetic vision is on the PFD and is not disabled. We are careful to stress the dangers of relying on electronic gadgets to press on in conditions where people should be turning around.

I use as a cautionary tale an accident report from New Zealand so it hits close to home. Chap was flying over mountainous terrain and avoiding entering controlled airspace (didn't like it so studiously avoided it). Entered IMC due to haze and lowering cloud base but continued probably relying on the synthetic vision equipment in his aircraft. I say probably because the terrain database had a spot height error for the terrain he was crossing, it showed he was clear at the altitude he was at. He slammed into the terrain a few hundred feet below ridge height. Mistakes happen, not even necessarily at the pilot's end of things, which can through a combination of errors lead to incidents, accidents and fatalities. VFR met minima exist for a reason :(
Gavin

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AKar
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Re: VMC into IMC

Post by AKar »

The few synthetic vision systems I've seen in videos (the only one I've barely seen in reality was on ground with highly featureless terrain around so...) seem to suggest the terrain "mesh" is relatively low-res in those - understandably so, given it is intended to enhance IFR situation awareness, and in IFR the terrain margins are large. Low terrain resolution is not a problem really, but I wonder how the terrain model is made up in those: how the terrain features are filtered for instance to allow for reduced sample spacing? Is it supposed to reflect the highest terrain features or the smoothed terrain average elevation?

-Esa

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