The impossible turn....sad video.

[WilliamJSS]

Graphic, so be warned.
Each video I see of these, I just remember my CFI telling me over and over and over and over, you can make a bunch of mistakes, and recover, but one you won't recover from, is the Impossible Turn.

Why would anyone ever try this? Has anyone seen a successful one? From the end of the video, you can see that He possible had a LOT of room to work with forward, or 30-40 degrees off to the right. I don't understand. Anyone else know more about this?

(Moderator edit Video a little too upsetting for the forum so link removed)

[WilliamJSS]

Sorry about that. I didn't think before posting even though it was from a news story from BBC.
Video was intended for reinforcement of a serious lesson every pilot learns almost first

[Great Ozzie]

Why would anyone ever try this?

Well... Barry Schiff wrote about this some years ago...

Technique: Unconventional Wisdom -- The options available following an engine failure

A video of a successful return to the airport: Real Pilot Stories: The Impossible Turn

A couple more AOPA links:

AOPA Live -- The Impossible Turn (video)

Impossible turn: Practice makes possible? (article)

-Rob

[Oracle427]

My instructor taught me to self brief on my abort and engine failure procedure each time I prepare to take the runway at any and every airport taking into account the current conditions.

This includes identifying an easily identifiable point along the takeoff roll where I will abort if I am not accelerating properly. It might be a hangar or the wind sock.

Next I will confirm that I will land ahead or slightly left/right if I have not yet started my turn to crosswind.

If I am already on my crosswind leg chances are that I can turn back to the airport and go for a downwind landing with a big runway. At smaller airports with 1900' runways and lots of obstructions all around I may still have to brief for an off airport alternative.

It also depends on how comfortable I am with the aircraft. I have practiced these turns at altitude with an instructor and it isn't easy to recover from a nose high attitude at very low speed, reverse course in a step turn and line up with a landmark "runway" on the ground given 700 feet. I wasn't able to do it when we last tried a couple of years ago.

[Hotshot J]

Its drilled into us to NEVER turn back on takeoff. You pick a good field and go for it, focus on that and not try to be a hero and land it on a road or runway. "Better to say sorry to the engineer than god himself kiddo"

Would it be possible to pm me the link, is that allowed?

[AKar]

In glider pilot training, it is instructed in a way that there is a kind of decision altitude (in a case of tow airplane emergency, or broken rope etc.). Before that you should continue ahead, above it you should turn back. This return turn is actually practiced at some point during the training by instructor releasing the rope slightly above the decision altitude, and monitoring the student's response.

Perhaps a similar decision altitude concept would be a good thing to have in single engine GA too?

-Esa

[pjc747]

The problem with attempting such in a powered airplane right after takeoff is that unlike a glider, the glide ratio and stall speed are likely much higher, and the ability to return to the runway is less likely with no power. If one were climbing at best angle of climb in a 172 he would be slower than the best glide speed (65kts) and wouldn't have much time to execute a 180-degree turn while losing altitude and safely landing.

[Oracle427]

My instructor and I practiced this decision height concept during my pure solo training and he taught me to self brief on it before every takeoff for every airport. I need to have a mental picture of where I am going and when before I firewall the throttle.

[Great Ozzie]

The problem with attempting such in a powered airplane right after takeoff is that unlike a glider, the glide ratio and stall speed are likely much higher, and the ability to return to the runway is less likely with no power. If one were climbing at best angle of climb in a 172 he would be slower than the best glide speed (65kts) and wouldn't have much time to execute a 180-degree turn while losing altitude and safely landing.

I do not like the idea of using Vx, nor did I immediately pitch to Vx (or a barrier speed) on takeoff, unless it was for practice or (obviously) 'required' because of field length. I prefer to allow the plane to accelerate / pitch to Vy and climb that way for the first 1000'. At any rate, once clear of the obstacles (which "typically" only a brief moment of the climb) one should pitch to and continue the initial climb at Vy.

My instructor taught me to self brief on my abort and engine failure procedure each time I prepare to take the runway at any and every airport taking into account the current conditions.

I did not say this at the time Oracle, but I was very impressed with the entire post.

During multiengine training, engine failures during the takeoff roll are also repeated many times, and each before-takeoff check ends with a briefing that recalls the procedures for engine failures before VMC (minimum control airspeed) and after. This quick pause should not be reserved solely for those flying around with two engines to lose. Besides, the situation is certainly no less grave in a single than in a twin. So before taxiing out onto the runway, review what to do in the event the engine fails during the takeoff roll, immediately after liftoff, and after the airplane has attained several hundred feet.
Plan the Takeoff(AOPA Flight Training)

Multi-Engine training is where I started this deliberate "quick pause" for a self-brief just prior to takeoff regarding engine failure. And as the author states, an engine failure on takeoff, single or twin, is serious business. So this idea of a takeoff self-brief is very wise imo.

[Medtner]

I'm not at all convinced about the impossibility of the turn back to the runway.

As Paul Bertorelli says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBh1Qd6IgA

[Lewis - A2A]

I don't think anyone says it's impossible it's simply that when the chances are against you, why on earth would you risk your life?


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[Medtner]

I don't think anyone says it's impossible it's simply that when the chances are against you, why on earth would you risk your life?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Many does indeed say that. And as Bertorelli says; why not incorporate it into the training? Why not make the airport an option - especially when the alternatives are just as bad as stalling and crashing into the ground? I'd rather crash and burn at the end of the runway, than inside somebody's house.

This was posted earlier, but is very interesting:

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?watc ... nTSBQ8LWRR

[Oracle427]

The impossible turn is considered impossible below certain altitudes. You can always turn back to the airport given sufficient altitude and good position.

One needs to ask themselves where they will go if their engine fails without sufficient altitude to turn back. At 400AGL, you are not going to make much more than a 90 degree turn and then what? Hopefully the plan wasn't to make the runway. The winds may also be unfavorable for a turn back as a very strong headwind will now be a very strong tailwind. That tailwind might be a big problem at airports with 2000 foot runways.

So, it all comes down to planning ahead. Check Google Earth before flying in and out of unfamiliar airports. Look for golf courses and farms that are nearby and close to the extended centerline.

Also there is absolutely no reason to stall just because of an engine failure. The airplane must still be flown under control all the way to the ground. Loss of control at any point has usually resulted in a very bad outcome.

During my pre solo PPL training in a 172, we did practice simulated impossible turns over a point on the ground and found that I required about 700 feet of altitude to compete a 180 turn and line up with the "runway"

[Medtner]

I'm with you - it needs to be planned and practiced. One doesn't know what altitude is acceptable (and which conditions are acceptable) unless it has been practiced a lot.

The thing is that when I heard about the "impossible" turn, I kind of just accepted that this was not an option (almost regardless of altitude), and I believe it is immensely dangerous that it is just disregarded with one word like that.

"The Maybe-turn", is as good a name as any.

[taildraggin68]

I guess it should be called the improbable turn.....the percentage rate of any given pilot in any given aircraft being able to make the turn back to the runway is low....well practiced pilot in a plane he knows well, in favorable weather, with favorable winds, might increase his chances to maybe.....I would rather have a planned "out" and focus on flying the plane to that "out". Yes, you could practice, but then "practice" all options