P51 takeoffs. Please help.

[Daddy Bear]

Hello all. My name is Phil and I recently bought a copy of A2A P51D Mustang. I am loving it but take offs are very dicey. Here is what I am doing.

1) Line up on the runway.

2) Brakes on.

3) Dial in 6 degrees of right rudder.

4) increase manifold pressure to 3500PSI.

5) Hold back slightly on the stick.

6) Release brakes and gradually increase the throttle.

7) Swerve off the runway to the right, take off sideways or sometimes not at all.

I have calibrated my stick and I have tried increasing rudder deflection to 7 degrees or more. I try not to let her get away from me and twice now I would say I have made a satisfactory job of it but otherwise I wouldn't let me loose in one of these things.

Is it just practice practice practice? Or is there a 'get it right every time' way of doing it? I am sort of hoping it is all about practice personally.

Anyway. thanks all.

Phil F

[CharlieP51]

Yes basically just practice. There is some debate on the 6 degrees right rudder but it's not that consequential to take-offs but more on the climb-out.

You have the basics correct as most here would agree ...set brakes, set throttle to around 30 psi manifold pressure, release brakes.

BUT THEN let it roll at 30 psi manifold till the tail comes up around 100 kts. It's a handful up to the time the tail is up. I find I need to apply some right steering immediately after brake release but THEN there are a couple strong pulls to the left..so be ready to apply varying amounts of gentle right rudder while accelerating up to 100kts and getting the tail up. From that point on it's pretty easy and much more controllable. THEN after the tail is up...smoothly apply full take-off power and a notch of flaps.

This is a summary and quick overview of how I get successful and predictable P51 take-offs time after time. It is not the same for everyone. It is also not precisely the exact method in the manual nor is it what real world P51 pilots may or may not do. We are not flying real P51's.

Please folks -->> I don't want or intend to create an argument or 'preach another gospel' I am sharing what has worked for me over 100's of Accu-Sim P51 take-offs. In simple language so as to help my fellow simmer.

It's JUST a SIMULATION
Happy SKIES to ALL

[DHenriques_]

Hello all. My name is Phil and I recently bought a copy of A2A P51D Mustang. I am loving it but take offs are very dicey. Here is what I am doing.

1) Line up on the runway.

2) Brakes on.

3) Dial in 6 degrees of right rudder.

4) increase manifold pressure to 3500PSI.

5) Hold back slightly on the stick.

6) Release brakes and gradually increase the throttle.

7) Swerve off the runway to the right, take off sideways or sometimes not at all.

I have calibrated my stick and I have tried increasing rudder deflection to 7 degrees or more. I try not to let her get away from me and twice now I would say I have made a satisfactory job of it but otherwise I wouldn't let me loose in one of these things.

Is it just practice practice practice? Or is there a 'get it right every time' way of doing it? I am sort of hoping it is all about practice personally.

Anyway. thanks all.

Phil F

Hi Phil;

Welcome to the A2A forums.

The Mustang can be a different brand of cat and takes a bit of getting used to but it's worth the effort to get it right.
You're right about the "practice". That's the key. On the other end of the equation you want whatever you are using for rudder to be carefully calibrated and correct. I'm assuming you are doing that. (What ARE you using for rudder control BTW?).
[TiP] FSX has a built in bug that causes a slight right yaw as power is applied on takeoff. Anticipate that and don't over correct for it because the Mustang will begin a LEFT yaw immediately after this happens. Just anticipate the slight right yaw and let the Mustang roll through it with a "slight" correction.
The key to control on takeoff in the 51 is in how the power is applied. Don't rush it in.
From your post I'm guessing at this point you might have a calibration issue as there's no reason you should be taking off to the right.
Try actually looking at the rudder movement in outside view to verify its movement and direction.
Dudley Henriques

[Pistonpilot]

If I have plenty of runway (my "home strip" is over 11,000' long!) and find that I'm having difficulty keeping a prop-fighter on the tarmac during takeoff, I'll try a few times without feeding in maximum takeoff power.

In the 'stang, I routinely begin to apply power from a 'rolling start' as I finish the turn onto the runway. I'm usually not even at 44" MP by the time I reach 100 mph; it seems like a VERY slow feed rate. I've only recently started experimenting with anything close to 61" of MP on takeoff. It can be done safely and effectively, but there is a lot of fancy footwork involved!

I suspect that a twist stick might make this a little more difficult, as opposed to rudder pedals, as it's probably hard to isolate your rudder and aileron movements from one another. Also, it seems to me that my 'stang likes a little right-wing-down aileron trim on takeoff at high power.

Additionally, I feel like the Mustang is a lot easier to manage in all phases (even taxi!) with an empty/removed fuselage tank. I can't really justify why this might effect ground handling, but, you might experiment with some lighter fuel loads and a little pattern work.

There are a few videos on Youtube showing various methods of wrangling A2A's Mustang off the ground, FYI!

Hope this helps!

-Ian

[JoeS475]

Phil, I gotta reitterate Dudley's question- what are you using for rudder? I've never used pedals (except for a C172 IRL), and I use a twist stick in FSX with much success. Ian, I will say that like anything else, with practice a twist stick is totally fine- I can keep my takeoffs and landings perfectly on the centerline, up to 15 kts crosswind (maybe not a full 90 degree, and I've not tried/encountered more yet!).

Now if you are using keyboard rudder, or none at all, you will have trouble. I have not used, but can imagine that tapping on a key is not gonna provide the response/feedback required for high performance flight. Also the rudder trim you use on takeoff is actually for the climb setting, and I believe to help if a go around is necessary. So don't assume that will help you on takeoff- it won't!

Here is (real) P-51 pilot Dudley's tutorial for takeoffs: http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 94&t=31684

And his other Mustnag flying tips can be found here: http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 93&t=32663

Good luck!

Joe

[Daddy Bear]

Thanks everybody you've been great. Still practicing, getting it right more and more often as I go along. I was like this learning to play chess as I remember. I just kept plugging away until it finally clicked.

Thankyou all very much.

Phil F

[Rarebear]

Practice.

Here is what I do.

Once all trim positions are set as per manual.

I hold brakes and slightly back elevator pressure(the more back pressure on the elevator the better your 51 will track). I pump the throttle to 40 MP. Let go of the brakes and starts rolling adjust for some right rudder then at about 60MPH or so (I kinda wing it) I go Forward elevator(I KNOW MOST WOULD NOT SUGGEST THIS) It does tend to get a little squirly because of the low airspeed but I can see where I am going and I can track STRAIGHT. once the tail is up and I am sure im on top of the rudder I gently but rapidly apply 60 MP and no more then let the sucker accelerate and liftoff.

I know its not what the manual says perse but I can get a predictable takeoff EVERY single time, So much so that I can do formation takeoffs without a problem.

its all about learning the aircraft and practice. There might be a different way that you might feel more comfortable with but it takes many takeoffs to learn it. Of course there is always the proven method that the manual gives you.

Also a good tip or info.

The more back pressure you have on the elevator the higher airspeed it takes for the tail to come up which means there is more airflow over the rudder when it does which means you have better control over that surface and usually takes less rudder to keep straight.

If you are have trouble with Takeoffs I would suggest 3 point takeoffs for a bit till your comfortable then once you get the hang of it you can start putting that nose over and experimenting with the Bucking bronco!!!

JDW

[Daddy Bear]

Practice.

Here is what I do.

Once all trim positions are set as per manual.

I hold brakes and slightly back elevator pressure(the more back pressure on the elevator the better your 51 will track). I pump the throttle to 40 MP. Let go of the brakes and starts rolling adjust for some right rudder then at about 60MPH or so (I kinda wing it) I go Forward elevator(I KNOW MOST WOULD NOT SUGGEST THIS) It does tend to get a little squirly because of the low airspeed but I can see where I am going and I can track STRAIGHT. once the tail is up and I am sure im on top of the rudder I gently but rapidly apply 60 MP and no more then let the sucker accelerate and liftoff.

I know its not what the manual says perse but I can get a predictable takeoff EVERY single time, So much so that I can do formation takeoffs without a problem.

its all about learning the aircraft and practice. There might be a different way that you might feel more comfortable with but it takes many takeoffs to learn it. Of course there is always the proven method that the manual gives you.

Also a good tip or info.

The more back pressure you have on the elevator the higher airspeed it takes for the tail to come up which means there is more airflow over the rudder when it does which means you have better control over that surface and usually takes less rudder to keep straight.

If you are have trouble with Takeoffs I would suggest 3 point takeoffs for a bit till your comfortable then once you get the hang of it you can start putting that nose over and experimenting with the Bucking bronco!!!

JDW

Well even if it isn't by the book it sounds exciting. I'll try it.

Cheers

Phil F

[Mitchell - A2A]

Daddy Bear and all who may be having similar takeoff problems:

First of all, I heartily advise you to take heed of whatever Dudley tells you. His real-world and flight sim experience translates perfectly to our Accu-Sim aeroplanes as he is, among many other things, a highly respected member of our Beta team and we gratefully rely upon his knowledge and expertise (as well as the rest of the team) to help us to tweak our crates into what you are now flying.

Additionally, you might wish to take a look at: http://www.a2asimulations.com/forum/vie ... 64&t=31687, (Flight Academy- Tailwheel Takeoffs) which may be of some aid to you. Even though I wrote it, don’t let that put you off. It may be of some help anyway.

I think that it is well to remember that those who have been fortunate enough to fly the P-51 in the real-world have all had extensive training and much prior experience in far less powerful and exotic aeroplanes. You have most likely come to understand that, for better or worse, our Accu-Sim P-51s have been designed to perform and behave just as the real-world ones do. We have often discussed amongst ourselves the consequences of accurately flight-modelling aeroplanes which in the real-world require so much prior training to properly and safely fly. Given that unlike in the real-world no actual physical and/or financial consequences will result from pranging our kites, we therefore blithely say, “Go ahead, learn to fly them. Break them (if you must) and try again. Learn from your mistakes.”

I just want to remind you, if you don’t already know, that we do offer some easier (“easier”, not necessarily “easy”) aeroplanes to master such as the Piper “Cub”, the Spitfire and the P-40. These aeroplanes’ flight models are also accurate. They are not “dumbed down” or “arcade-gamed” in any way. That sort of thing is blasphemy around here. It’s just that their natural flight characteristics may be a bit less difficult to master for most newcomers to a truly accurate flight sim. That being said, their flight models still require some careful and artful handing; however, many pilots find that they are not as challenging for the most part as are the P-47 and the P-51.

If you continue to have problems with the takeoff or any aspect of flying and operating any of our aeroplanes, please continue to inquire on this forum and someone (Dudley, if you are lucky) will help you.

Mitchell

[DHenriques_]

Practice.

If you are have trouble with Takeoffs I would suggest 3 point takeoffs for a bit till your comfortable then once you get the hang of it you can start putting that nose over and experimenting with the Bucking bronco!!!

JDW

Just a respectful word of caution on those 3 point takeoffs )

Although the Mustang can be rotated 3 point you should be aware that in Beta we spent a ton of time with programming in torque roll as it exists for this exact situation in the actual 51.

ANY combination of high angle of attack, low airspeed, and high power coupled with a sudden pitch input can result in a torque roll to the left side that on takeoff in 3 point can easily be unrecoverable and result in a crash.
Ken worked real hard on getting this exactly right for our WOP3 Accusim Mustang.
I'm guessing you might be getting away with your 3 point takeoffs because you are being smooth with your rotation. That would result in you being "just below" the torque roll threshold.
Exactly where Ken put the code to initiate the roll is a secret he buried in a cave at the North Pole and guarded by 20 penguins highly trained in Alaskan martial arts, but you can play around at altitude setting up the Mustang for a torque roll and find the sweet spot. Makes for a fun flight really
Dudley Henriques

[Rarebear]

Practice.

If you are have trouble with Takeoffs I would suggest 3 point takeoffs for a bit till your comfortable then once you get the hang of it you can start putting that nose over and experimenting with the Bucking bronco!!!

JDW

Just a respectful word of caution on those 3 point takeoffs )

Although the Mustang can be rotated 3 point you should be aware that in Beta we spent a ton of time with programming in torque roll as it exists for this exact situation in the actual 51.

ANY combination of high angle of attack, low airspeed, and high power coupled with a sudden pitch input can result in a torque roll to the left side that on takeoff in 3 point can easily be unrecoverable and result in a crash.
Ken worked real hard on getting this exactly right for our WOP3 Accusim Mustang.
I'm guessing you might be getting away with your 3 point takeoffs because you are being smooth with your rotation. That would result in you being "just below" the torque roll threshold.
Exactly where Ken put the code to initiate the roll is a secret he buried in a cave at the North Pole and guarded by 20 penguins highly trained in Alaskan martial arts, but you can play around at altitude setting up the Mustang for a torque roll and find the sweet spot. Makes for a fun flight really
Dudley Henriques

Yes, I am being gentle. I do backpressure but not exaggeratedly. I havent gotten any torque rolls but then again I am being gentle. One thing I do is that I put a LOT of aileron trim right for a smooth takeoff so im not fighting the airplane in the initial stage of the takeoff.

Good pointer glad you mentioned it.


BEAR

[norfolkmike]

Practice.

If you are have trouble with Takeoffs I would suggest 3 point takeoffs for a bit till your comfortable then once you get the hang of it you can start putting that nose over and experimenting with the Bucking bronco!!!

JDW

Just a respectful word of caution on those 3 point takeoffs )

Although the Mustang can be rotated 3 point you should be aware that in Beta we spent a ton of time with programming in torque roll as it exists for this exact situation in the actual 51.

ANY combination of high angle of attack, low airspeed, and high power coupled with a sudden pitch input can result in a torque roll to the left side that on takeoff in 3 point can easily be unrecoverable and result in a crash.
Ken worked real hard on getting this exactly right for our WOP3 Accusim Mustang.
I'm guessing you might be getting away with your 3 point takeoffs because you are being smooth with your rotation. That would result in you being "just below" the torque roll threshold.
Exactly where Ken put the code to initiate the roll is a secret he buried in a cave at the North Pole and guarded by 20 penguins highly trained in Alaskan martial arts, but you can play around at altitude setting up the Mustang for a torque roll and find the sweet spot. Makes for a fun flight really
Dudley Henriques

I remember reading something just along those lines from a “fighter group memoirs” type book.

The guys were being urged to take the P:51 to altitude, close the throttle and raise the nose until the airspeed tailed off to a near stall point. THEN, they had to firewall it, after being suitable practised in spin recovery techniques of course!

He remarked that there were a LOT of white faces in the mess after THAT exercise, but fewer incidents as a result of overpowering a sluggish stang during a “go around” situation!

[trucker17]

Hello all. My name is Phil and I recently bought a copy of A2A P51D Mustang. I am loving it but take offs are very dicey. Here is what I am doing.

1) Line up on the runway.

2) Brakes on.

3) Dial in 6 degrees of right rudder.

4) increase manifold pressure to 3500PSI.

5) Hold back slightly on the stick.

6) Release brakes and gradually increase the throttle.

7) Swerve off the runway to the right, take off sideways or sometimes not at all.

I have calibrated my stick and I have tried increasing rudder deflection to 7 degrees or more. I try not to let her get away from me and twice now I would say I have made a satisfactory job of it but otherwise I wouldn't let me loose in one of these things.

Is it just practice practice practice? Or is there a 'get it right every time' way of doing it? I am sort of hoping it is all about practice personally.

Anyway. thanks all.

Phil F

Its alot of Practice.....Also, once you complete steps 1-5, add rudder as needed, as well as aileron, to keep the aircraft level, and runnning in a straight line.....Dont worry if you dont get right off.....
Just remember PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.....

[A-26Invader]

I find it easier to get a rolling start in the 51' during takeoff. Advance manifold pressure to 30" and maintain a proper heading down the runway. At about 40 or so indicated airspeed advance the manifold pressure to 45" and at about 80 indicated airspeed, manifold at 55". As I haven't flown the Stang in a couple weeks, I'll pay more attention to indicated airspeed and power management. Don't forget, a fair share of semi-left but mostly right rudder is involved.