Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

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r4y30n
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Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by r4y30n »

So a couple weeks ago I posted in the P-51 forum asking about a crazy maneuver I heard of a pilot doing near the end of the war, Dudley said it looked to him like a modified hammerhead, seems to me like this is more the place for such a discussion. Basically, the P-51 was chasing/being chased by a 109 and they were more or less on opposite sides of a circle going round and round. To break out the pilot mentions pulling hard onto the edge of stall, releasing pressure on the controls and kicking the rudder. The plane then spun around giving him a half decent firing solution on the 109.

Here's the clip where they talk about/illustrate the maneuver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8

So, my question here is about the precise technique involved to try to do something like that in either the P-40, Spitfire or P-51. I've been trying all day on the P-51 but I always end up provoking a spin rather than yawing hard over like I saw, was I going too fast? Too much power? Typically I've been starting the maneuver around 250-275 indicated with 50" and 3000 RPM and end up pulling around 6 Gs before the spin. Also, I had around 70% fuel in the wing tanks, no aft tank, no pylons or wing payload.

-Dave
Last edited by r4y30n on 16 Jul 2012, 03:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Rocket_Bird
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Rocket_Bird »

I'm not sure if there is anything precise about this myself. It seems to be a bit of coordination and a lot of luck.

I was playing around with the A2A P-51 earlier to see if I could do this and seemed to have been able to swing around, albeit in an ugly fashion. The key is to not stall, because when you do, you will end up in a spin. Just above the stall speed, if you go full rudder (I used left rudder mostly), the P-51 arcs around pretty nicely for about a fraction of a second. As risky as it is, I think it's important to keep the power in for a little extra "umph" to keep the plane from spinning and to pitch down as needed. I had only about 2700 RPM when performing this maneuver, though I doubt it will make that much of a difference. I believe I was in the 130-150 IAS range when I started kicking the rudder. Once swung back around, it's all matter of trying to get everything steady, and that I think is the hardest part.

Had pretty much full tanks when I started (no aft fuel, payload, or anything like that, but I did load up the aft tank).
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r4y30n
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by r4y30n »

Alright, so I was probably too close to stall and going too fast. Probably best to keep revs down to 2700 from a safety standpoint, though, the prop tends to overrun in a spin... (Is the momentary rev limit for the the Packard Merlin the same 3600 RPM as the British engines?)

-Dave
Last edited by r4y30n on 16 Jul 2012, 03:33, edited 1 time in total.
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r4y30n
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by r4y30n »

So would the anti-servo tab on the P-51 make such maneuvers difficult to pull off? Less rudder authority at speed, etc?

-Dave
Last edited by r4y30n on 16 Jul 2012, 03:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Killratio
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Killratio »

Dave,

1. Yes, "momentary" on the P-M is also 3600rpm.

2. Servo tab...my understanding (and I will be corrected, no doubt, if wrong) is that this type of servo tab does not reduce rudder efficiency but makes it physically harder to get that efficiency. So "full left" rudder will give the same yaw, it will just be harder to push it to "full". I don't see 150-200mph making it so hard as to be impossible?

3. Are you trying to do this to either side? My guess in a finely tuned trick like this is that to the left will have a much greater chance of success than to the right.

Best regards

Darryl
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Killratio
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Killratio »

I just watched the footage....a couple of comments:

The key clues, to me, are

1. that he was "just above the stall" before he kicked the rudder,
2. that he couldn't (by which he must mean he knew he "wouldn't be able to") track the guy
3. so he "guessed" where the guy would be...."spray and pray"
4. That the fight was "downhill" straight afterwards.

I may be being misled by the Dogfight computer generation of the incident but this almost looks like an incipient spin to me. I wonder how much control he had during, or whether the result would have been VERY different had the Bf109 climbed instead of what he did?


Darryl
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r4y30n
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by r4y30n »

Haha, yeah that was the impression I got, a whole lotta luck at the right time. Haven't had much time to practice maneuvers lately, I'll see if I can give it a shot tomorrow...

And yes, you're right about the anti-servo tab, the purpose is to fight the pilot as speed builds to reduce the amount of yaw he can put into the aircraft at speed.

-Dave
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r4y30n
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by r4y30n »

So I was messing around yesterday and found that in a steady turn like in the video I could get it to swing around a little like the maneuver mentioned but it was a spin and it was much easier to do to the left, this was around 200mph IAS with 46" and 3000 RPM. Hammerheads in general are pretty tough and I still haven't managed to pull one off...
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Buzz313th
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Buzz313th »

r4y30n wrote:So I was messing around yesterday and found that in a steady turn like in the video I could get it to swing around a little like the maneuver mentioned but it was a spin and it was much easier to do to the left, this was around 200mph IAS with 46" and 3000 RPM. Hammerheads in general are pretty tough and I still haven't managed to pull one off...

The hammerhead in the A2A P-51 is doable and quite a bit of fun.. You can even get in a pretty good tailslide.

In a real Acro aircraft, you get positive elevator and rudder authority, even at close to zero airspeed by the prop wash. So engine power should help. Not sure if it's modeled in FSX or the a2a planes.

For the hammerhead, climb straight up on the upline with a good amount of power (Not too much, or you will not be able to counter torque roll as you get slow), using visual wing to horizon reference stay in that attitude and also get ready for right aileron deflection (To counter Torque Roll) and stay active on your feet. Just before airspeed reaches zero (This is not a stall as the wings are unloaded when the plane is in a vertical path) kick full left rudder and get ready for full down elevator and full right aileron corrections to keep the aircraft in a clean hammerhead until your pointed 90 degrees on the downline (Gyroscopic precession, asymetrical lift and torque from the engine durring the hammerhead, should cause a rolling/pitching moment as your nose gets close to crossing the horizon)

The Competition tailslide at idle power in FSX is weird, since I have never found an FSX aircraft that will "Pitch Over" (Rotate around the lateral axis only) after falling backwards. It always seems to want to "Yaw Over", regardless of the control inputs I give it. Also, FSX Flight Modeling doesn't seem to "reverse direction" of roll, yaw and pitch moments upon control surface deflection when the aircraft starts moving backwards. So control inputs in FSX while in the "Slide" needs positive deflection, not negative, which is unfortunate as it could make for bad habbits in muscle memory.
Last edited by Buzz313th on 22 Jul 2012, 10:12, edited 1 time in total.
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r4y30n
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by r4y30n »

Huh, well thanks for the info, I'll keep at it! I think my mistake was treating it as a rudder only operation when clearly it isn't.

-Dave
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Buzz313th
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Buzz313th »

And I Apologize ahead of time for so aggressively promoting online flying, but......

Come by the FASA teamspeak channel and I can help you sort out your acro figures on the MP server.
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Buzz313th
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Buzz313th »

The Competition tailslide at idle power in FSX is weird, since I have never found an FSX aircraft that will "Pitch Over" (Rotate around the lateral axis only) after falling backwards. It always seems to want to "Yaw Over", regardless of the control inputs I give it.
Just wanted to give an update...

Was messing around last week with the Accu-Sim 51 and low and behold I can get it to pitch over around the latteral axis at the end of a tailslide.

This would be the only FSX aircraft that I am able to do this with.

:)
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by CodyValkyrie »

Buzz313th wrote:
Just wanted to give an update...

Was messing around last week with the Accu-Sim 51 and low and behold I can get it to pitch over around the latteral axis at the end of a tailslide.

This would be the only FSX aircraft that I am able to do this with.

:)
I've stayed out of this post until now, but wanted to quickly add something. I remember being able to tail slide the original P-51 (WOP2 version). It sure would surprise pilots who were chasing me when they saw my aircraft sliding backwards towards them then whip around. Of course, it also made me a big stationary target for everyone in the multiplayer servers LOL!
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Buzz313th
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Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Buzz313th »

CodyValkyrie wrote:
Buzz313th wrote:
Just wanted to give an update...

Was messing around last week with the Accu-Sim 51 and low and behold I can get it to pitch over around the latteral axis at the end of a tailslide.

This would be the only FSX aircraft that I am able to do this with.

:)
I've stayed out of this post until now, but wanted to quickly add something. I remember being able to tail slide the original P-51 (WOP2 version). It sure would surprise pilots who were chasing me when they saw my aircraft sliding backwards towards them then whip around. Of course, it also made me a big stationary target for everyone in the multiplayer servers LOL!
Hey Cody, just to be clear. The actual tailslide is possible in many addons and even the default ones. Its the 180 degree "Pitch Reversal" around the latteral axis thats required for a competition tailslide that until I tried it in the Accusimmed 51 was impossible in any other FSX addons. The others just would yaw over to the downline and I couldn't get em to pitch over.
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Rarebear

Re: Hammerhead and others with A2A planes...

Post by Rarebear »

My two cents worth is that History channel does some very OUT OF PROPORTION rendering. WAY OUT OF SCALE!


Although there are some things that are completely weird that some WWII pilots did like the dude that did a inverted vertical reversement or whatever he calls it. I have heard two pilots speak about that maneuver.

Either way, It might be that in thin air the aircraft acts a little different due to the fact that it has much more inertia per airspeed mile than at lower altitudes. Basically your ground speed is higher at altitude because of the thinner air, so you are actually traveling with more intertia at lower airspeeds(I mean actual wind hitting the aircraft). this translates to easier maneuvers at altitude. which is why its also easier to blackout at altitude(at the same AIRSPEED).

For example it is a lot easier to do a loop at say 10 thousand feet than 3 thousand feet ( I know from Experience) you do not have to pull so many gs to get the airplane to follow through the maneuver.

So, anyways. Hope it helped a little.

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