The A2A Simulations Community

"Come share your passion for flight"
It is currently Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:37 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:42 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:06 pm
Posts: 4388
Having recently invested in a new bit of hardware (see here) I've noticed a tendency to erect my head a bit in turns, particularly steep ones; basically I'm attempting to level it with the 'horizon' somewhat. Not sure if I've always been doing this or if it's just an effect of the head tracker though?

Image
Yeah - I know: a bit too much rudder from Mr Twisty Joystick Guy!

I'm just wondering if this behaviour is common in GA pilots/students, and if so is it a bad habit? Presumably in a properly coordinated steep turn you wouldn't feel the need to erect your head due to gravity so any tendency to do this would be a purely visual thing.

I had a quick look for images on the net, and in this one for example, the instructor in the right-seat seems to be doing the same thing. So do these guys. Interested to hear what the CFI's and real pilots here have to say on the matter... :)

Thanks,
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:09 am 
Offline
A2A Chief Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 4055
Location: East Coast United States
Nick M wrote:
Having recently invested in a new bit of hardware (see here) I've noticed a tendency to erect my head a bit in turns, particularly steep ones; basically I'm attempting to level it with the 'horizon' somewhat. Not sure if I've always been doing this or if it's just an effect of the head tracker though?

Image
Yeah - I know: a bit too much rudder from Mr Twisty Joystick Guy!

I'm just wondering if this behaviour is common in GA pilots/students, and if so is it a bad habit? Presumably in a properly coordinated steep turn you wouldn't feel the need to erect your head due to gravity so any tendency to do this would be a purely visual thing.

I had a quick look for images on the net, and in this one for example, the instructor in the right-seat seems to be doing the same thing. So do these guys. Interested to hear what the CFI's and real pilots here have to say on the matter... :)

Thanks,
Nick



Yes, if you are not sitting perfectly erect in the seat when flying that is incorrect. This is the first thing we cover with any new student. Just sit up straight and think of it as "going with the turn".
In the simulator it's a bit different naturally as the plane is banking visually on the screen but your body position remains unchanged. It's one of the things we can't change when dealing with a desktop simulator. Never has bothered me personally. I just don't think about it. :-)))))))))

Dudley Henriques


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:24 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:06 pm
Posts: 4388
Thanks Dudley - I suspected that this was something that would be frowned upon. In my case I've tried to reduce the scaling a bit so any head movements I make in the roll axis aren't magnified by the software.

Wonder if I'd have a tendency to do this in the real thing? I've worked on small boats for the last 15 years; aligning oneself to try and be perpendicular to the horizon is sometimes necessary to avoid falling over! Wonder if that's anything to do with it? :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:32 am 
Offline
Senior Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:30 pm
Posts: 2250
Location: Typically hanging around N07, 12N, KLDJ, KCDW
The part where you turn green and feel motion sick might help relieve you of this tendency! :)

I have two bad habits. One is aligning my head to the horizon and second is making rapid head movements. Both were bad for aerobatics and upset recovery training. I can imagine it can be very bad in hard IMC as well. I believe it contributes to disorientation.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:40 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:06 pm
Posts: 4388
Oracle427 wrote:
The part where you turn green and feel motion sick might help relieve you of this tendency! :)
Yeah, seems that an instinct which can help combat motion sickness on boats would potentially have the opposite effect when airborne.

I'm wondering how I'll get on with the head tracker in sim IMC too... :|

Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:40 am 
Offline
A2A Chief Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 4055
Location: East Coast United States
Nick M wrote:
Thanks Dudley - I suspected that this was something that would be frowned upon. In my case I've tried to reduce the scaling a bit so any head movements I make in the roll axis aren't magnified by the software.

Wonder if I'd have a tendency to do this in the real thing? I've worked on small boats for the last 15 years; aligning oneself to try and be perpendicular to the horizon is sometimes necessary to avoid falling over! Wonder if that's anything to do with it? :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Nick


It's a natural human factors issue in new pilots. As the plane banks the mind wants to keep the body naturally erect so the novice pilot may lean against the turn. For some it's a natural fear reaction as the new pilot might feel safe in level flight but feel apprehensive to being taken out of their "safe zone".
It's a known factor to any good CFI and we deal with it carefully if present in the first hour of instruction. Once a person feels comfortable in the airplane and realizes that banking the plane doesn't mean going "upside down", the problem usually will rectify itself. If it doesn't we then have a serious problem for the CFI as some people simply can't adjust to the flight environment and have tried it for various reasons, none of these born in positive incentive.
But these people are quite rare. In my many years teaching people to fly I've had two like this.
Dudley Henriques


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:50 am 
Offline
Senior Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:30 pm
Posts: 2250
Location: Typically hanging around N07, 12N, KLDJ, KCDW
One tidbit from my training...

On the first training flight where I used a foggle, I immediately felt the sensation of being in a turn to the left as I lowered the foggles over my eyes and lost reference to the horizon. It was an extremely powerful sensation and it required a lot of concentration to ignore it and to use the instruments. It felt something like being in a 5 degree left bank when the wings were perfectly level on the AI while the compass and turn coordinator were steady. It was really weird, because as soon as I raised the foggles everything went back to normal. I could repeat it just by raising and lowering the foggles. I haven't felt it since, but it was very weird and confusing. It is amazing how the body works, or "fails to work" in a foreign environment.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:55 am 
Offline
A2A Chief Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 4055
Location: East Coast United States
Oracle427 wrote:
One tidbit from my training...

On the first training flight where I used a foggle, I immediately felt the sensation of being in a turn to the left as I lowered the foggles over my eyes and lost reference to the horizon. It was an extremely powerful sensation and it required a lot of concentration to ignore it and to use the instruments. It felt something like being in a 5 degree left bank when the wings were perfectly level on the AI while the compass and turn coordinator were steady. It was really weird, because as soon as I raised the foggles everything went back to normal. I could repeat it just by raising and lowering the foggles. I haven't felt it since, but it was very weird and confusing. It is amazing how the body works, or "fails to work" in a foreign environment.


This can happen is there is an issue of some kind (even minor) in the Eustachian tubes. Could be a cold or something temporary; a slight imbalance. Hard to tell without a Doctor visit. If it persisted it would be a problem. Could have been some vertigo symptoms.
DH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:01 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 5:03 am
Posts: 3063
For some reason, I've found the feeling of tilting my head to align my view with the horizon somewhat disorienting, and it feels unnatural...I've never had any tendency to do it automatically. If I tried it for longer, for instance for purpose of taking a photograph, I often get a slight hint of nausea. I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but the planes I practised my initial flying were all with canopies, making it natural to look into the turn simply by lifting one's chin instead of peeking around the frame the cockpit structure creates in some airplanes.

-Esa

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:32 am 
Offline
A2A Test Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:49 pm
Posts: 2054
Location: KUMP
Oracle427 wrote:
One tidbit from my training...

On the first training flight where I used a foggle, I immediately felt the sensation of being in a turn to the left as I lowered the foggles over my eyes and lost reference to the horizon. It was an extremely powerful sensation and it required a lot of concentration to ignore it and to use the instruments. It felt something like being in a 5 degree left bank when the wings were perfectly level on the AI while the compass and turn coordinator were steady. It was really weird, because as soon as I raised the foggles everything went back to normal. I could repeat it just by raising and lowering the foggles. I haven't felt it since, but it was very weird and confusing. It is amazing how the body works, or "fails to work" in a foreign environment.

I recall one very disorienting experience I had - when returning from a night x-country on a clear night. As I got in over the city, I completely lost track of where the horizon actually was - the stars blending in with the city lights. I too had to ignore the sensations and go to instruments.

And agreed, it is amazing how the body works and how we must make conscious attempts to adapt to that environment, because as you say, it is a foreign one.

_________________
Rob Osborne
Flight Instructor - CFI, CFII, MEI, MEII
A & P Mechanic


FAASTeam - Safer Skies Through Education
Professionalism in aviation is the pursuit of excellence through discipline, ethical behavior and continuous improvement. NBAA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:17 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:06 pm
Posts: 4388
Interesting comments on nausea and vertigo. Having to consciously override what your senses are telling you must be an odd experience.

AKar wrote:
I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but the planes I practised my initial flying were all with canopies, making it natural to look into the turn simply by lifting one's chin instead of peeking around the frame the cockpit structure creates in some airplanes.
My only real life 'piloting' experience to date has been a very brief one ('experience flight' in a glider) and I don't recall exactly what I did with my head except looking into turns to check for other aircraft, but I did find the view of the Cotswolds laid out beneath me was a a bit distracting when it was time for me to take control of the thing. It wasn't a feeling of vertigo but more one of being overawed. I could probably have used another 10 minutes of "ooh-ing" and "aah-ing" beforehand. :)

I really should try and get in another trial flight one of these days. In the meantime, looks like I could get the opportunity for a couple of training sessions in aerial survey ops which will make a bit of a change from the usual marine stuff. My outfit uses Cessna twins for this purpose and I'm wondering what back-seating in one of those will be like for a few hours. They tend to fly lots of parallel survey lines with uncoordinated (skidded) turns at the end to keep the sensors pointing downwards (unless they've upgraded their mounting arrangements). I reckon the novelty of doing this for hours on end, head down in a laptop, may wear off pretty fast. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Nick

P.S. As expected, the head tracker certainly doesn't make sim flying in IMC any easier, especially if I move my head around to glance at the keyboard or to try and grab a slurp of coffee! :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:47 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 5:03 am
Posts: 3063
Nick M wrote:
Interesting comments on nausea and vertigo. Having to consciously override what your senses are telling you must be an odd experience.
One particular and very common chance to experience one is to take an aisle seat in a typical tubeliner: if the airplane has and uses even modest performance, pay attention how strongly your senses suggest that the nose would lift or rise some during the acceleration (that is, of course, before it actually does!). This works the best at night or otherwise when you don't have an outside view. These sensations are used to cue our senses of motion in full-motion flight simulations: relatively small lateral accelerations can almost perfectly be simulated by tilting your environment while visually keeping you upright.

-Esa

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:20 pm 
Offline
Airman Basic

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:01 am
Posts: 7
I was taught not to do this (gliders) as it makes judging the bank angle much harder. Guess that's more a problem for us though, since we don't even have a virtual horizon or turn coordinator (only the woolen thread indicating slip). The interesting part is that I fly out ouf an airport in mountenous terrain, so I've never even seen a truly flat horizon :roll:

On a sidenote, I've done 30 or so jumpseat flights (less strict rules in Norway, or just more rebellious flight crews) in commercial turboprops and 737s, with most of them going through IMC for parts or all of the flight. I've never experienced any conflicting turn sensations, I figure it might have to do with the size and stability of the aircraft and instruments, combined with learning aviation firstly on the sim without ever really learning visual flying (before I started gliding this year), so that I'm completely comfortable disregarding looking out the windows.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:00 am 
Offline
Technical Sergeant

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:48 am
Posts: 892
Location: Oksbøl, Denmark
I'm not a real world pilot, but in my days as a road racer I always(when possible) kept my head level to the horizon when turning, and my Aprilia RS250 could manage around 50 degrees of bank/lean :)

_________________
Kind Regards
Tomas

Accu-Sim aircraft in my hangar:
C172, C182, P51 Civ, P51 Mil, B17, Spitfire, P47, B377 COTS, J3 Cub, T6, Connie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this a bad habit?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:14 pm 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:06 pm
Posts: 4388
Having very recently installed Version 2 of EZdok, I thought it was worth revisiting this topic. Version 2 includes what they've called a 'horizon hold' feature; there's a little bit of a description of it in this bit of the developer's video. I've been playing around with it for a while and experimenting with the settings. The feature also includes 'turn head' behaviour whereby the view direction moves in the same direction as the turn.

What struck me is how naturally these two seem to compliment each other. In other words, when turning the aircraft I understand that it's desirable to look at the bit of sky that you'll be turning into to make sure it's not full of other aeroplanes or similar. In a level turn*, it seems we can't really do that without a bit of 'horizon tracking' (i.e. looking up) as well as looking into the turn. I'm guessing this is something that comes so naturally to most pilots that they do it without really being aware of it.

Difficult to show with a screenshot, but here's one anyway. This is the viewpoint 'redirected' entirely by the software without any need for hat switch panning etc. The 'turn head' part of the feature is actually set at a fairly moderate level here.
Image
*Not like this one then.

To me, it certainly feels a lot more natural in the traffic pattern and so on than the default static FSX/P3D view. Not really relevant for those who always sim with head tracking hardware of course. However, even though I own an EdTracker device now, there are plenty of times when I prefer to sim 'unencumbered'. :)

Cheers,
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group