Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

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Styggron
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Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Hello everyone,
I'm still doing my non-accusim Spitfire tests in another thread but I am doing a second one with the cub. This is really for people who are considering getting this plane and wants to know more precisely what you miss out if you don't get accu-sim. They can work out if the accu-sim add on cost is worth it to them. Yes there is a list available on the accu-sim manual of the Piper Cub so that is axiomatic, I'm covering other aspects.

Most people tend to instantly get accu-sim and hence they don't know what they are missing out on. This is for those people. It is not for asking "why wouldn't you get accu-sim". This is not the point. People evaluate things differently, and they apply "what is worth the cost" differently. The product needs to make 1 person happy. The purchaser. No one else (bar the manufacturer of course :))

I shall also be doing testing with and without accu-feel V2 which is a product I can thoroughly recommend as it gives a taste of accu-sim for your default FSX planes and it also works on A2A planes where you don't have accu-sim.

So this is work in progress so findings so far. (Yes FSX settings are as recommmmended in the manual :))

Default plane first
1. I flew the default plane to get a feel of how that works. Accu-feel was on with this. The plane was very easy to manoeuvre on the taxi way, turns are easy, everything was straight forward. The default Piper does have mixture control, the A2A one does not.
2. The default model is ok for what it is. Controls are all there and as mentioned, even mixture control is there. Maybe this is not accurate as the A2A one does not have that, or maybe there is a slight model difference.
3. Radios are similar to the A2A ones, you have a handheld
4. Starting is CTRL-E you have checklists built into FSX
5. You can open the door with SHIFT-E and the door opens the same way as the A2A one.
6. You cannot open the left window on the default FSX one.
7. Banking is not an issue

A2A Piper Cub - Non accusim version - Accu-feel V2 active
1. Obviously you INSTANTLY see the amazing quality and detail of an A2A craft. Try zooming in on a bolt or rivet point ! Look at that detail.
2. All panels very clear, as expected and the norm for A2A. Zoom right in, they are just as good !
3. As the default FSX model, you can open the door but on the A2A one you can clock on the right door. Could not figure out how to close it again so I just used SHIFT E
4. As expected, with the A2A you can put the left window down a little or all the way
5. You can add a passenger (Heidi) and although you can change her demeanor, she will not react, move or say anything that I could find. This would of course be an "accu-sim" functionality which I cannot test yet.
6. Much like my Spitfire tests, I found some cockpit sounds are not there because they would be accu-sim. You can prime the fuel but there are no sounds there.
7. You can't start the cub with any controls on the inside of course, you need to hand turn the prop. If you have accu-sim you can use the view set apart for this (using the A key). Now interestingly with NO accu-sim installed your pointer changes when you hover over the prop but because you have no accu-sim you can't hand crank it. Odd the pointer changes still though. The only way to start the Piper without accu-sim is with the keyboard shortcut or using AutoStart from the panel.
8. No built in check lists / Pilot notes I can see unlike other A2A craft.
9. Back to Heidi, you can add a passenger and remove one on the fly (even when flying). It makes a big difference to the plane handling as it should of course.
10. Manoeuvering is tricky. Much harder to taxi. Tight turns are no where near as easy as in the default FSX. Even using differential brakes so be careful on the ground. You need to get some speed/power up.
11. Banking is way different. I can't seem to bank more than 20 degrees. On page 56 third paragraph of the plane manual (not the accu-sim manual) it talks about steep turns. If you use the rudder, you can make a steeper bank angle. Not sure why you can't without the rudder. Is it a characteristic of the plane ? I don't know yet. (There is another thread another user posted asking this as well). [ EDIT: Problem found. This is because under realism the "General" slider was not all the way to the right.]
12. There is a similar 2 way radio and it has a battery which can go flat. There is an A2A panel where you can check fuel, do passenger load, change metric/imperial measures. Of course there is a simple maintenance hangar where you can check the engine status and overhaul if needed.


So you get quite a bit even without -accusim


Same test but without accu-feel V2
1. Bar the brilliant enhanced physics and sounds accu-feel V2 gives you, everything else is the same. You DEFINITELY want accu-feel if anything for your other default planes or any A2A where you don't think accu-feel is necessary for whatever your reasons.

So what do you miss out so far without accu-sim
I have not done the test with accu-sim so this is just a small list of what I noticed. The tests are by NO means completed, they are in progress.
Besides the list as per the accu-sim manual what I can instantly see is
1. Heidi does not appear to move or speak at all
2. Some cockpit items (like the fuel primer) make no sound. The door makes a sound.
3. You cannot hand start (or air start according to the manual) without accu-sim. You need to use the auto start option on the A2A panel.
4. Whilst you can add a passenger, they only add to the weight which of course affects handling. You can of course see Heidi in the plane but she does not appear to speak and does not appear to move. Whilst in the fuel payload screen you can change her demeanor, it does not appear to do anything which makes sense as it is an accu-sim function. Not sure why the option is changeable without accu-sim though.


I will update this thread as the tests continue.
Last edited by Styggron on 12 Sep 2016, 16:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by DHenriques_ »

Styggron wrote:Hello everyone,
I'm still doing my non-accusim Spitfire tests in another thread but I am doing a second one with the cub. This is really for people who are considering getting this plane and wants to know more precisely what you miss out if you don't get accu-sim. They can work out if the accu-sim add on cost is worth it to them. Yes there is a list available on the accu-sim manual of the Piper Cub so that is axiomatic, I'm covering other aspects.

I shall also be doing testing with and without accu-feel V2 which is a product I can thoroughly recommend as it gives a taste of accu-sim for your default FSX planes and it also works on A2A planes where you don't have accu-sim.

So this is work in progress so findings so far. (Yes FSX settings are as recommmmended in the manual :))

Default plane first
1. I flew the default plane to get a feel of how that works. Accu-feel was on with this. The plane was very easy to manoeuvre on the taxi way, turns are easy, everything was straight forward. The default Piper does have mixture control, the A2A one does not.
2. The default model is ok for what it is. Controls are all there and as mentioned, even mixture control is there. Maybe this is not accurate as the A2A one does not have that, or maybe there is a slight model difference.
3. Radios are similar to the A2A ones, you have a handheld
4. Starting is CTRL-E you have checklists built into FSX
5. You can open the door with SHIFT-E and the door opens the same way as the A2A one.
6. You cannot open the left window on the default FSX one.
7. Banking is not an issue

A2A Piper Cub - Non accusim version - Accu-feel V2 active
1. Obviously you INSTANTLY see the amazing quality and detail of an A2A craft. Try zooming in on a bolt or rivet point ! Look at that detail.
2. All panels very clear, as expected and the norm for A2A. Zoom right in, they are just as good !
3. As the default FSX model, you can open the door but on the A2A one you can clock on the right door. Could not figure out how to close it again so I just used SHIFT E
4. As expected, with the A2A you can put the left window down a little or all the way
5. You can add a passenger (Heidi) and although you can change her demeanor, she will not react, move or say anything that I could find. This would of course be an "accu-sim" functionality which I cannot test yet.
6. Much like my Spitfire tests, I found some cockpit sounds are not there because they would be accu-sim. You can prime the fuel but there are no sounds there.
7. You can't start the cub with any controls on the inside of course, you need to hand turn the prop. If you have accu-sim you can use the view set apart for this (using the A key). Now interestingly with NO accu-sim installed your pointer changes when you hover over the prop but because you have no accu-sim you can't hand crank it. Odd the pointer changes still though. The only way to start the Piper without accu-sim is with the keyboard shortcut or using AutoStart from the panel.
8. No built in check lists / Pilot notes I can see unlike other A2A craft.
9. Back to Heidi, you can add a passenger and remove one on the fly (even when flying). It makes a big difference to the plane handling as it should of course.
10. Manoeuvering is tricky. Much harder to taxi. Tight turns are no where near as easy as in the default FSX. Even using differential brakes so be careful on the ground. You need to get some speed/power up.
11. Banking is way different. I can't seem to bank more than 20 degrees. On page 56 third paragraph of the plane manual (not the accu-sim manual) it talks about steep turns. If you use the rudder, you can make a steeper bank angle. Not sure why you can't without the rudder. Is it a characteristic of the plane ? I don't know yet. (There is another thread another user posted asking this as well).

So what do you miss out so far without accu-sim
Besides the list as per the accu-sim manual what I can instantly see is
1. Heidi does not appear to move or speak at all
2. Some cockpit items (like the fuel primer) make no sound. The door makes a sound.

I will update this thread as the tests continue.
It's noteworthy as a data point for any comparison testing you might be doing between accusim and accufeel that much, indeed most, of what makes accusim what it is lies hidden deep beneath the surface.

Because of the depth of the physics programmed into accusim, unless you are mistreating the aircraft or doing something abnormal to what the plane is "expecting" from you as a competent pilot flying it, you just might not see accusim at work.
This is exactly what makes accusim what it is and why it is so unique. Accusim pairs your plane with the conditions under which the plane finds itself. You could actually say that accusim is monitoring everything going on inside the engine and how the airframe senses how it is being treated while it's in motion.
Accusim is in a class all by itself in my opinion. There are aircraft one can purchase where there are some penalties thrown at you if you exceed a certain parameter, but I've yet to see anything that even approaches what accusim gives to an A2A add on.
The only reason I'm stressing all this for you is that in comparing the two products (accufeel and accusim), if you are a good pilot and flying the plane the way you should, you might not be seeing the potential of the accusim program.
So the better you fly you will of course see accusim at work, but start flying incorrectly and you'll REALLY see accusim at work :-))))))))))))
Dudley Henriques

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Styggron
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
Styggron wrote:Hello everyone,
I'm still doing my non-accusim Spitfire tests in another thread but I am doing a second one with the cub. This is really for people who are considering getting this plane and wants to know more precisely what you miss out if you don't get accu-sim. They can work out if the accu-sim add on cost is worth it to them. Yes there is a list available on the accu-sim manual of the Piper Cub so that is axiomatic, I'm covering other aspects.

I shall also be doing testing with and without accu-feel V2 which is a product I can thoroughly recommend as it gives a taste of accu-sim for your default FSX planes and it also works on A2A planes where you don't have accu-sim.

So this is work in progress so findings so far. (Yes FSX settings are as recommmmended in the manual :))

Default plane first
1. I flew the default plane to get a feel of how that works. Accu-feel was on with this. The plane was very easy to manoeuvre on the taxi way, turns are easy, everything was straight forward. The default Piper does have mixture control, the A2A one does not.
2. The default model is ok for what it is. Controls are all there and as mentioned, even mixture control is there. Maybe this is not accurate as the A2A one does not have that, or maybe there is a slight model difference.
3. Radios are similar to the A2A ones, you have a handheld
4. Starting is CTRL-E you have checklists built into FSX
5. You can open the door with SHIFT-E and the door opens the same way as the A2A one.
6. You cannot open the left window on the default FSX one.
7. Banking is not an issue

A2A Piper Cub - Non accusim version - Accu-feel V2 active
1. Obviously you INSTANTLY see the amazing quality and detail of an A2A craft. Try zooming in on a bolt or rivet point ! Look at that detail.
2. All panels very clear, as expected and the norm for A2A. Zoom right in, they are just as good !
3. As the default FSX model, you can open the door but on the A2A one you can clock on the right door. Could not figure out how to close it again so I just used SHIFT E
4. As expected, with the A2A you can put the left window down a little or all the way
5. You can add a passenger (Heidi) and although you can change her demeanor, she will not react, move or say anything that I could find. This would of course be an "accu-sim" functionality which I cannot test yet.
6. Much like my Spitfire tests, I found some cockpit sounds are not there because they would be accu-sim. You can prime the fuel but there are no sounds there.
7. You can't start the cub with any controls on the inside of course, you need to hand turn the prop. If you have accu-sim you can use the view set apart for this (using the A key). Now interestingly with NO accu-sim installed your pointer changes when you hover over the prop but because you have no accu-sim you can't hand crank it. Odd the pointer changes still though. The only way to start the Piper without accu-sim is with the keyboard shortcut or using AutoStart from the panel.
8. No built in check lists / Pilot notes I can see unlike other A2A craft.
9. Back to Heidi, you can add a passenger and remove one on the fly (even when flying). It makes a big difference to the plane handling as it should of course.
10. Manoeuvering is tricky. Much harder to taxi. Tight turns are no where near as easy as in the default FSX. Even using differential brakes so be careful on the ground. You need to get some speed/power up.
11. Banking is way different. I can't seem to bank more than 20 degrees. On page 56 third paragraph of the plane manual (not the accu-sim manual) it talks about steep turns. If you use the rudder, you can make a steeper bank angle. Not sure why you can't without the rudder. Is it a characteristic of the plane ? I don't know yet. (There is another thread another user posted asking this as well).

So what do you miss out so far without accu-sim
Besides the list as per the accu-sim manual what I can instantly see is
1. Heidi does not appear to move or speak at all
2. Some cockpit items (like the fuel primer) make no sound. The door makes a sound.

I will update this thread as the tests continue.
It's noteworthy as a data point for any comparison testing you might be doing between accusim and accufeel that much, indeed most, of what makes accusim what it is lies hidden deep beneath the surface.

Because of the depth of the physics programmed into accusim, unless you are mistreating the aircraft or doing something abnormal to what the plane is "expecting" from you as a competent pilot flying it, you just might not see accusim at work.
This is exactly what makes accusim what it is and why it is so unique. Accusim pairs your plane with the conditions under which the plane finds itself. You could actually say that accusim is monitoring everything going on inside the engine and how the airframe senses how it is being treated while it's in motion.
Accusim is in a class all by itself in my opinion. There are aircraft one can purchase where there are some penalties thrown at you if you exceed a certain parameter, but I've yet to see anything that even approaches what accusim gives to an A2A add on.
The only reason I'm stressing all this for you is that in comparing the two products (accufeel and accusim), if you are a good pilot and flying the plane the way you should, you might not be seeing the potential of the accusim program.
So the better you fly you will of course see accusim at work, but start flying incorrectly and you'll REALLY see accusim at work :-))))))))))))
Dudley Henriques
Exactly !!
and because I am a poor pilot, I would be more likely to see/hear/feel the effects of accu-sim. I agree with you. There is nothing out there like it and people like you would know. It is for people who may not want everything accu-sim gives because it is a substantial portion of the cost, almost costing like the base aircraft and accu-feel can be a VERY good alternative.

All I had to go on was lists on manuals, I wanted to see / hear / feel and EXPERIENCE the differences because with the Spitfire and Cub, it will determine if I get accu-sim for future purchases of planes that can be purchased without accu-sim. The trend of only having one package (base and accusim) as the Cherrokee and Commanche is a problem because I might look at those if they were available without accu-sim. Yes I know people say what's the point etc this is why I'm doing these tests to determine overall, if it was worth it *for me* :)
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Oracle427 »

If you can't bank more than 20 degrees I believe you may not have set realism sliders all the way to the right and autorudder to off. The FSX engine aids are preventing too much bank.
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Oracle427 wrote:If you can't bank more than 20 degrees I believe you may not have set realism sliders all the way to the right and autorudder to off. The FSX engine aids are preventing too much bank.
Hi Oracle.
Waaaaay ahead of you. :) As I wrote in the post, (please see last line just before I wrote default plane) the settings are set as per the manual. Auto rudder is most definitely off else every other plane would have had issues. :P :)

All other planes bank perfectly even crazy degrees, only the A2A Cub does not. :D Also as I said in the post, Page 56, 3rd paragraph of the manual talks about steep banking and how it is different on the cub and you need to use rudder. :) (Item 11 in my OP when talking about the non accu-sim version)

So not sure if I try to bank by putting the joystick left or right, that it does not bank more than a certain amount. Someone else had the same issue in another thread.
Whatever it is though, I know it must be me though. :)

I shall however recheck those settings Oracle427 just incase something was inadvertantly changed. It is always worth a check. :)
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Oracle427 »

I have flown the J-3 in real life and there is nothing special about how it needs to be flown. You need to use as much rudder as it required to maintain coordination as with any other aircraft. The wonderful thing about the J-3 is that the controls are a bit sluggish and it will reveal all errors in their full glory for you and everyone else to bear witness. It is a great training aircraft.

Other than that you could roll inverted just as with any other aircraft, though I wouldn't recommend it!

The really important settings are covered on page 21. The red box highlights the enable automixture setting, but the flight model sliders are the ones I'm concerned with in addition to the autorudder setting. I'm not sure what else to check if those are all confirmed to be all the way to the right. Did you double check to make sure?
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Oracle427 wrote:I have flown the J-3 in real life and there is nothing special about how it needs to be flown. You need to use as much rudder as it required to maintain coordination as with any other aircraft. The wonderful thing about the J-3 is that the controls are a bit sluggish and it will reveal all errors in their full glory for you and everyone else to bear witness. It is a great training aircraft.

Other than that you could roll inverted just as with any other aircraft, though I wouldn't recommend it!

The really important settings are covered on page 21. The red box highlights the enable automixture setting, but the flight model sliders are the ones I'm concerned with in addition to the autorudder setting. I'm not sure what else to check if those are all confirmed to be all the way to the right. Did you double check to make sure?
Hello again Oracle,
As per the last line on my previous post I shall recheck all those settings when I get home tonight. I can't remember the sliders but I do know absolutely auto rudder is OFF.

The default one is sooooo much easier to taxi with tight turns but that is the point of an A2A craft, it works like the REAL thing. :)
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by sandi »

Hi, the person in the other thread was most likely me , and i can confirm this, with one moderation, if I’m in plane and level flight i can bank it harder. To me it is not a huge thing , i mean you use the rudder, there , done, it was just strange.
However when i bank it and my nose start to pull down should it not come up again, when airspeeds builds up? not like totally sure on the last part, but shall test today and lay the recording online that should take care of that, all realism settings, are of course set, anything else would be idiotic.
/Sandi, who will shortly attempt to fly the cub from KSFO too salt lake city.

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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Hello Oracle,
Ok problem found and I repeated the tests to ensure it was indeed what I found.

1. It was the "General" slider under realism. It was not all the way to the right. Nothing to do with auto rudder which I never used from day 1.

I worked backwards. I set everything by the book, then changed things one by one and took off and tested after every change to see what caused the issue and found it was the "General" slider.

Odd really. It only affects the A2A Cub, no other A2A craft.
I have edited the OP to reflect this.

I'd have checked this eventually but did it first thanks to you. Because those realism settings never affected any other A2A craft, it is not something I would have instantly gone to, only "eventually". Still problem solved.

Thanks Oracle :)
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Oracle427 »

Glad to hear it is solved. Good luck!
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Oracle427 wrote:Glad to hear it is solved. Good luck!
Thank you. :) I just need to do some more non accusim tests before I install it and make the final review and see if those extra sounds and Heidi and of course other things accu-sim give us is worth it IMHO. :)
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Quick update.
I'm still testing but I put on the Accu-Sim expansion on.
  • Immediately, I noticed cockpit sounds. The Fuel primer makes a sound as does everything else in there. Some sounds were already there such as the door of course but the door sounds NOW would be actual recordings by A2A so more realism there.
  • Heidi is now animated and she talks. Even though I made her nervous, she did not panic too much despite my crazy flying. She did grip the supports a few times and screamed during the landing. :o
  • I was able to hand start the plane too which is an accu-sim function so no need to use the menu to start
  • Didn't notice much difference at all with just accu-feel on the sea plane version than with accu-sim. Accu-feel does a damn fine job. So maybe accu-feel just uses the same sea plane physics as accu-sim ? I don't know...only A2A would know if there is more Sea Plane physics with a full on accu-sim model. I could not tell the difference I fear.
  • Normally accu-feel V2 automatically turns OFF when it detects you are on an accu-sim plane. The Cub didn't. Accu-Feel stayed on even though it was an accu-sim plane.
Not noticed much else so far. I know this was one of the first things A2A did of course. Although I am still testing, at the moment I am leaning toward recommending just getting accu-feel and not accu-sim with this plane. There is not enough bang for buck in my opinion in the test so far. The expansion cost almost as much as the plane (you can save $5 if buying it at the time you are buying the plane) yes you have extra sounds, all dynamic and yes Heidi is animated and she speaks and of course there are a lot of things that happen "under the hood" absollutely. You can see the list of what accu-sim adds here https://a2asimulations.com/store/index. ... af34a4b755

Whether that list is "worth it" is up to the person. Remember with accu-sim the plane will behave like the real thing. The engine is modelled and there is persistence. It all depends if those things are important to you or if you want to put that cost toward another plane or accu-feel.

I shall continue the tests for more depth but at present, I am leaning more toward not needing accu-sim at all with this plane and just having accu-feel V2.Sure Heidi is good but the novelty wears off very quickly I found. Still though, there is no other manufacturer where you can get an AI passenger like Heidi. Remember, she reacts to the situation and the environment, that is the special thing here.

The tests continue...
Need to test the plane in different weather conditions, cold, ice, snow, heat. This is where accu-sim I am confident will shine and where you can REALLY tell "hey this is really differentl" :)
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

Quick update.

Did more tests, nothing to add since the last post. Heidi really does not say that much at all even on Nervous or Fun. I don't know why, I just expected her to be more talkative. I checked several youtube videos that had Heidi in them, and she was not that talkative in those either but I still wanted to see for myself and it pretty much confirms what you see in the videos sadly. So yes she does react to the environment sometimes, she is animated, she does not turn around but she does move her head and arms. I wish she was more talkative though.

The only difference I've noticed I've listed in the previous post. (Yes I know there is a lot "under the hood")

Some more tests to go then final conclusions posted. :)
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Styggron
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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by Styggron »

OK some more tests.

Had wind up so piper was getting thrown around while taxiing and took of vertically from stand still. I expected more of a reaction from Heidi especially under those circumstances.

Overall for me, I'd say the base plane with accu-feel is more than enough. (Yes I know accu-sim add on is alot more than just Heidi) Sorry but I just expected Heidi to do more talking, perhaps turn around etc. Heidi's presence was a key point for me and why I wanted to try the Piper J3.

Still, it is great to be able to even have a passenger. If only we can place her in other default aircraft. That would be awesome.

:)

If I can highlight a fantastic accu-sim consequence. If you open the side door and fly, you FEEL it. The drag will be apparent, the door will flap. You pitch down and up, the door moves with those physics. If you dont have accu-sim you don't feel that drag and the door dors not flap about.

The physics accu-sim gives you are second to NONE.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

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Re: Piper tests non accu-sim and accu-sim

Post by n421nj »

So its safe to say that accusim is worth it.
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