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 Post subject: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:24 am 
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Hello all. First off, as everyone has said, excellent work A2A. You all have produced a superior and exclusive add-on for FSX. I wont go on further; for I am quite sure it will be in vain because others have already elequently stated what a wonderful piece of art you all have created. So, on to the question and statement.

What is the minimum oil qty of the P-47D?

The ammeter gauge does not move at all. There is no indication of a positive charge regardless of whether the generator switch is on or not.

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-Nick

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:30 pm 
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The ammeter only moves when you turn on the pitot tubes, lights and such. It appears to measure the amount of load placed on the generator than the actual amount of power available from the generator at any given time. I notice whenever I flick on the pitot heat that causes a large jump, then external lights and such. As far as the minimum number of oil I think the oil pressure starts to drop at about 4 or 5 gallons of course with failure ensuing after a few more gallons get burned off. I never let the oil get that low though so unsure what the actual quantity is. I do a good enough job burning up engines on my own without letting the oil level getting low, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Thank you for the information Roadburner. A2A folks, I am hoping you could give a more definitive answer for minimum oil qty.

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:18 pm 
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I don't know what the virtual minimum oil level is but I haven't yet run out of oil before I've run out of gas. :)

If you mean what was the historical minimum quantity, this is an interesting question but one that could probably only be answered by an engine mechanic -- and the 'minimum' amount of oil needed by the engine would only be theoretical IMO.

All of the vintage Pilot's Flight Operating Notes and training materials in my collection give roughly the same limited information about the P-47D's oil system: the tank has a 28 gallon capacity but that 19 gallons is the normal level and the rest is overflow. The oil level could be checked on the ground by opening a petcock on the left side of the tank and near the filling spout; if oil dripped out, the aircraft had at least 19 gallons. (The A2A WoP3 P-47D's loadout menu seemingly assumes that 19 gallons is the proper amount and that is the maximum quantity for the model). Thus, it seems that the normal pre-flight check included ensuring that the aircraft had at least 19 U.S. gallons of oil on board before start up, and possibly extra oil up to 28 gallons.

As you may have noticed, the cockpit does not include a gage that measures amount of oil in the system; instead the pilot is only able to monitor oil temperature and PSI. This is very likely the reason why the operating notes and training materials do not provide a minimum quantity of oil needed to operate the engine; the pilot wouldn't be able to know while flying when he was nearing that dangerous quantity anyhow. Instead, the operating instructions explain to watch the PSI:

If the oil pressure doesn't come up within 30 seconds, stop the engine at once. Lack of pressure can destroy and engine in an incredibly short time. (On a cold engine, the oil pressure clibbs quickly to 200 psi.) Keep the engine below 1000 rpm until the oil temperature is above 40 degrees C, and until the oil pressure is below 100 psi. (AAF 50-5, March 1945, p.45)

The oil tank pendulum allows 7 seconds of inverted flight. When the pendulum is operating properly, oil pressure drops, then rises to 50 psi as the plane completes a maneuver involving inverted flight. If this doesn't happen, the tank is defective. (AAF 50-5, March 1945, p.23)

Oil pressures should be as follows:
Maximum............90 PSI
Minimum.............60 PSI
Idling.................25 PSI
Desired..............75 to 85 PSI

(Pilot training notes, c.1944)

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Continuing this discussion, the vintage operational charts do provide figures for oil consumption under various conditions:

1. Specific Engine Flight Chart, P-47 Series, R-2800-21 Engine Model
Condition ............................................ Allowable Oil Consumption
Normal Rated (Max. Cont.) ......................... 33 U.S. QT/HR
Max. Cruise ............................................. 21 U.S. QT/HR
Min. Specific ........................................... 13 U.S. QT/HR
(From AN 01-65BC-1, PFOI for RP-47B & C and P-47D & G Airplanes, Nov. 1943)

2. Power Plant Chart, P-47D-25 through P-47D-35, Engine Model(s) R-2800-"B" Series
Guage Reading ............Fuel Press................Oil Press.............Oil Temp............CHT............. Oil Consumption
Desired ......................... 25 ........................80 psi ............... 60-75 C ...........232 C .......... 15 U.S. QT/HR
Maximum ....................... 26 ........................100 psi ............. 100 C ..............260 C .......... 32 U.S. QT/HR
(From AN 01-65BC-1A, PFOI for P-47D-25 through D-35 Airplanes, Jan. 1945)

Admittedly, this is not definitive but it is interesting to see the projected oil consumption; it looks to me like the Army's planners anticipated that a Thunderbolt would burn anywhere from three to eight gallons of oil an hour, depending on operating conditions. Considering that the most fuel-laden Razorback models were limited to around three hours flying time at best, I believe that unless the engine was severely damaged or the oil tank was actually leaking, that fuel was the more precious fluid and of the most concern to the pilot.

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Thank you very much for the great info Skycat! The R-2800 sure does consume some oil! This information is enough to fulfill my purpose; minimum oil qty for the checklist I am creating. Since the R-2800 consumes so much oil I believe 19 Gallons should be the minimum quantity before the first flight/mission of the day.

It would be interesting to know at what quantity we would see a reduction in oil pressure and/or increase in oil temp.

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:47 pm 
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That said ...
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Col. Donald J. M. "Col. Don" Blakeslee, Fairport Harbor OH. 4th FG Headquarters Squadron. P-47D 42-7863 WD-C. This photo was taken following the mission of 16 August 1943 when Col. Don was set upon and shot up by three FW190s. Although heavily oil streaked, he brought it safely back to Debden thanks to Jim Goodson who shot one of them off his tail and provided escort.
Photo: 4th FG Association

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Also consider Edwin King's oil-streaked Thunderbolt

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Capt. Joseph H Powers Jr. Tulsa, OK. 61st Fighter Squadron. P-47D 42-75163 HV-P_ “Powers Girl”.
Photo: Danny Morris
* The book Warbirdtech Volume 23: Republic P-47 Thunderbolt captions this photo as, "Leaking oil painted the fuselage and windscreen of P-47D 42-75163 of the 61st Fighter Squadron; the pilot safely returned to base (U.S. Air Force)."

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:06 am 
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Whew! Holy smokes! Good to know we can make it back to the field with minimal oil.

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:12 am 
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At about 5 gallons of oil, the sump will just begin to be uncovered. You will see intermittent oil pressure drops as the oil is pumped upwards and the sump is dry.

Scott.

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 Post subject: Re: Oil Qty and Ammeter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Scott - A2A wrote:
At about 5 gallons of oil, the sump will just begin to be uncovered. You will see intermittent oil pressure drops as the oil is pumped upwards and the sump is dry.

Scott.


Good to know. Thanks Scott!

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