Incompetent Flight Engineer

BIG, double-deck, four-engine, medium to long range, high altitude, high speed, commercial transport airplane
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RichardFS
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Joined: 26 Feb 2017, 12:34

Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by RichardFS »

I have only found one other post about this "issue", and it didn't seem to have any definite resolution. When I fuel the airplane, I typically fill the center tank to capacity first, then fill the outboard tanks, and then the inboard tanks. I try to keep more fuel in the outboards than in the inboards, so obviously there is not an even amount of fuel in each tank. When I man the FE station manually, I run the inboard tanks dry first, then the center and outboard tanks simultaneously. When a tank runs dry, I switch the fuel selector from "TANK-TO-ENG" to "MAN-TO-ENG". I've noticed however that the automatic FE does not do this. He will run the tanks dry and keep the fuel selectors on that tank, causing the engine to quit. If I take over and switch it to MAN-TO-ENG, he immediately switches it back. Am I missing something here? Why does the automatic FE allow the engines to run dry? I have also noticed that on the Connie, you are meant to keep more fuel in the outboard tanks than the inboards at all times, yet the automatic FE never obliges to that procedure.

TreeTops
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by TreeTops »

Read page age 65 of the pilots manual again. After takeoff use the centre tank first, then from the inner tanks down to 2000, then from the outer tanks to 2000, and finally tank to engine for the remainder. I never use the FE so I will leave that part up to others. You should never be in a situation where any of the wing tanks run dry.
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Trev

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CAPFlyer
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by CAPFlyer »

Where did you get this information on how to fuel the airplanes? It's not what the manual calls for in either B377 or the L-049 and is the source of your problem.

The proper fueling order for the B-377 is as follows -

#1, #2, #3, and #4 tanks filled evenly until the #2 and #3 tanks are full.

Continue filling the #1 and #4 tanks evenly until full.

When all wing tanks are full, begin filling the Center tank.

Then, follow the Fuel Balancing Operations on Page 64 - 67 of the B377 manual.


On the L-049 the fueling order is as follows -

#1, #2, #3, and #4 tanks are filled evenly until the #2 and #3 tanks are full.

Continue filling the #1 and #4 tanks evenly until full.

Then, follow the Fuel System Management section on the upper left of Page 124 in the L-049 manual.
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RichardFS
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by RichardFS »

TreeTops wrote:Read page age 65 of the pilots manual again. After takeoff use the centre tank first, then from the inner tanks down to 2000, then from the outer tanks to 2000, and finally tank to engine for the remainder. I never use the FE so I will leave that part up to others. You should never be in a situation where any of the wing tanks run dry.
That's great, but my issue has nothing to do with filling the tanks. It's how the automatic FE is managing them.

RichardFS
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by RichardFS »

CAPFlyer wrote:Where did you get this information on how to fuel the airplanes? It's not what the manual calls for in either B377 or the L-049 and is the source of your problem.

The proper fueling order for the B-377 is as follows -

#1, #2, #3, and #4 tanks filled evenly until the #2 and #3 tanks are full.

Continue filling the #1 and #4 tanks evenly until full.

When all wing tanks are full, begin filling the Center tank.

Then, follow the Fuel Balancing Operations on Page 64 - 67 of the B377 manual.


On the L-049 the fueling order is as follows -

#1, #2, #3, and #4 tanks are filled evenly until the #2 and #3 tanks are full.

Continue filling the #1 and #4 tanks evenly until full.

Then, follow the Fuel System Management section on the upper left of Page 124 in the L-049 manual.
There is a large placard at the FE's station underneath the Hydraulic pump shutoff switches on the Connie that says in big words "AT ALL TIMES, FUEL TANKS 2 & 3 MUST NOT EXCEED FUEL IN TANKS 1 & 4 RESPECTIVELY". I would expect the manual to reflect this. The FE on the Connie ignores this completely and likes to run 1 & 4 down before switching to 2 & 3.

On the 377, tanks 2 & 3 are smaller than the outboards and will obviously run dry first. Even if I fill them the way they're meant to, that doesn't change the actions of the automatic FE. He still runs 2 & 3 until they're empty and doesn't switch the tanks, thus causing the engines to die.

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gulredrel
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by gulredrel »

There is a large placard at the FE's station underneath the Hydraulic pump shutoff switches on the Connie that says in big words "AT ALL TIMES, FUEL TANKS 2 & 3 MUST NOT EXCEED FUEL IN TANKS 1 & 4 RESPECTIVELY". I would expect the manual to reflect this. The FE on the Connie ignores this completely and likes to run 1 & 4 down before switching to 2 & 3.
Please consider that fuel gauges have two different scales, one for outer and one for inner tanks. They are graduated differently.
"Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please."

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CAPFlyer
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by CAPFlyer »

RichardFS wrote:There is a large placard at the FE's station underneath the Hydraulic pump shutoff switches on the Connie that says in big words "AT ALL TIMES, FUEL TANKS 2 & 3 MUST NOT EXCEED FUEL IN TANKS 1 & 4 RESPECTIVELY". I would expect the manual to reflect this. The FE on the Connie ignores this completely and likes to run 1 & 4 down before switching to 2 & 3.
1 & 4 can be equal to 2 & 3, you're just not supposed to run it under that. The manual is clear on the fuel usage and the FE will follow that - if the tanks were filled right. If he's not following the procedure as specified in the manual, then it's because you've done something wrong, not him.
On the 377, tanks 2 & 3 are smaller than the outboards and will obviously run dry first. Even if I fill them the way they're meant to, that doesn't change the actions of the automatic FE. He still runs 2 & 3 until they're empty and doesn't switch the tanks, thus causing the engines to die.
Then you've got something else going on that is preventing him from following the fuel consumption schedule. Have you tried re-installing both the L-049 and the B377 and then running the latest Accusim Update? It sounds like either something got corrupted or you have an axis or switch assigned that is overriding the FE control.
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RichardFS
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by RichardFS »

gulredrel wrote:
There is a large placard at the FE's station underneath the Hydraulic pump shutoff switches on the Connie that says in big words "AT ALL TIMES, FUEL TANKS 2 & 3 MUST NOT EXCEED FUEL IN TANKS 1 & 4 RESPECTIVELY". I would expect the manual to reflect this. The FE on the Connie ignores this completely and likes to run 1 & 4 down before switching to 2 & 3.
Please consider that fuel gauges have two different scales, one for outer and one for inner tanks. They are graduated differently.
Again, according to the manual and the information in the airplane itself, there should not be more fuel in tanks 2 and 3 than in 1 and 4. even with their graduation scale taken into account, There still always ends up being less fuel in the wrong tanks when the FE is in charge.

RichardFS
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by RichardFS »

CAPFlyer wrote:
RichardFS wrote:There is a large placard at the FE's station underneath the Hydraulic pump shutoff switches on the Connie that says in big words "AT ALL TIMES, FUEL TANKS 2 & 3 MUST NOT EXCEED FUEL IN TANKS 1 & 4 RESPECTIVELY". I would expect the manual to reflect this. The FE on the Connie ignores this completely and likes to run 1 & 4 down before switching to 2 & 3.
1 & 4 can be equal to 2 & 3, you're just not supposed to run it under that. The manual is clear on the fuel usage and the FE will follow that - if the tanks were filled right. If he's not following the procedure as specified in the manual, then it's because you've done something wrong, not him.
On the 377, tanks 2 & 3 are smaller than the outboards and will obviously run dry first. Even if I fill them the way they're meant to, that doesn't change the actions of the automatic FE. He still runs 2 & 3 until they're empty and doesn't switch the tanks, thus causing the engines to die.
Then you've got something else going on that is preventing him from following the fuel consumption schedule. Have you tried re-installing both the L-049 and the B377 and then running the latest Accusim Update? It sounds like either something got corrupted or you have an axis or switch assigned that is overriding the FE control.

Not sure why how I fill the tanks and how he manages them are related? Even if I filled them incorrectly, Shouldn't he still be switching the tanks over when they run dry? That's the issue I'm having. When the tanks run dry, he doesn't switch them and the engines quit. Whether or not the tanks were filled correctly in respect to each other shouldn't be relevant in my opinion. What I would think would happen is that once the simulation recognizes that the tank is down to a certain amount, it would be coded to switch the selector so the engine will stay running (with the auto FE). I understand that I can manage the FE station by myself during cruise, but I have to give it back to the auto FE eventually and when I do he will inevitably switch the engines back to the empty tanks.

As for reinstalling the add-ons, I've already done that three times since I've had them. It's a little tiring to go to all that trouble for a small glitch, and I've learned that the more you go deleting and replacing and re-installing files, the higher the chances that even more things will go wrong. If this is the way the FE is programmed to work, then I'll just tolerate it.

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CAPFlyer
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Re: Incompetent Flight Engineer

Post by CAPFlyer »

What I'm saying is that you're putting the FE in a bad situation to start with and then you're expecting him to fix your error for you. If you're not starting correctly with the fuel distributed right, he's not going to know that the reason he sees so much fuel on the airplane is because you've improperly fueled the center before the wings. He can't transfer fuel, he can only burn the fuel like he's supposed to and that's based on the total fuel on the airplane. If you've loaded it wrong, you're giving him bad information to work off of and that's where the problem lies. He's conflicted because he's seeing way more fuel onboard than he should but yet the wing tanks are showing low. He doesn't understand why because although he's intelligent, he's still not human and can't see the full situation so doesn't recognize the misfueling. So he does what he's programmed to do and burns the wings trying to fix the problem not understanding that they're not the source of it.

Try filling the plane right for once instead of being stuck on the FE and see if he manages the fuel correctly. If he still doesn't do it right, then the problem isn't the FE - it's your installation. You either have something installed (a gauge, module, etc) that is interfering with his operation or you have an axis or switch assigned that you're either not using or is giving bad readings that is interfering with him operating. Both the B377 and L-049 have had pretty extensive testing and post-release confirmation of operation and this is not a problem that's been brought up in the past that wasn't caused by something on the user's install or their procedures. I've got almost a thousand hours in both airplanes combined and I've never had an issue with the FE's fuel handling beyond being a little less "forgiving" of fuel imbalances in the L-049 that I would personally be.
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