The A2A Simulations Community

I've been flying this plane for a looong time, and think I am pretty decent at it for a sim pilot (I'm not a rw pilot). Today though I decided to get back to basics and re-vist a question I've had from the start about this aircraft: turn coordination.

To cut to the chase, I've noticed this plane requires enormous amounts of rudder input. While flying figure 8's, with standard rate turns, in fact, I routinely have to input full deflection to keep that ball centered. And rolling out of the turn is a real b*tch--there seems to be a ginormous amount of inertia.

I know this plane is old, and the old planes could be cantankerous, but is this realistic? I know it has a huge tail and all, but this plane is really slippy...that nose just doesn't want to come around in the turn, even shallow turns. Like I said, I'm not a real pilot, but it almost seems like something isn't right here...(I won't rule it out, but I don't think it is a problem with my motor skills )

I think this issue might be related to the other thread "lack of directional stability on landing". Crosswind landings, using cross-control techniques seems virtually impossible (to me at least) because of the aircraft's inertia.

Can anybody comment on this? Certainly I can't be the only one to notice this. Since the new Captain of the Ship addon is going to test our smoothness and coordination in turns, I thought it was a good time to bring this up. (I fear that my future 'passengers' are going to be barfing their guts out, despite my best efforts.)

p.s. I don't have the B-17 so I can't comment on whether or not that plane is easier to fly or requires similar amounts of rudder input.

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

Can't say I have a problem in coordinated turns but I certainly had a problem the other day, when I tried landing in a crosswind of 15 knots. Shortly before touchdown, in the most crucial phase of the flight, I had almost no rudder authority and went off the runway because I couldn't manage to straighten the aircraft out after my crabbed approach.

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Happy Landings
- Patrick

After buying the 377 on release in 2008 (can't believe it was so long ago), I'm finally able to 'afford' it in my solo AirHauler career and so I'm looking to put in some long and happy hours at the control of it. It's been a long time coming

Recently I've been making some practise flights and circuits to familiarise myself with it properly again, but I have the same problem. I also recall it behaving the exact same way when I first flew it so long ago. Back then I was using my Sidewinder FF2 stick with twist grip, on which I had the rudder sensitivity set quite low, but now I use Saitek Pro Flight Pedals with the sensitivity set in the middle (default) and the problem is the same.

I've just been doing a few circuits in a 15-17kt crosswind and I also can't keep it on the runway during landing, with both full rudder and full differential braking. Almost, but not quite. If I start using it in AirHauler I'm going to be picking up some damage and penalties from landing off-runway, I fear!

Co-ordinated turns are likewise hard work as noted above. It's hit or miss whether I can keep the ball centred. Differential throttle control might be the solution but I don't have enough throttles at the moment.

The only other minor issue I have is that the squealing brake sounds occasionally play when I'm using rudder only (on the ground) and not the toe brakes. Anybody else had this happen? I'll have to check the axis calibration. Could be down to 'spiking' on the toe brake axes I suppose...

Hi,

Someone else was asking about this recently. I haven't noticed any issues, but you must note that the FS slip indicator is broken, and doesn't work correctly. After much investigation it is definitely confirmed broken, and is not the result of bad pilot technique on the part of any individual.

I'll do some test flights this evening to see if I can suffer the same issues.

On a side-note, anyone know the maximum crosswind limits of the B377? Maybe we are flying out of limits...

Best regards,
Robin.

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A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

Vulcan,

Hadn't heard that the FS turn coordinator is fooked. You mean that turn coordination in all FS planes is iffy?

To clarify the issues I'm seeing: If I roll into the turn very, very smoothly, and apply just a tad of rudder, it really is not too much of a problem keeeping the turn coordinated. If I let it slip even a bit though, once that ball comes off center, I have to progressively increase the rudder input throughout the duration of the turn; So I might start off with just a couple of degrees, but as I follow through the turn, I eventually have to increase to the point that my rudder is fully deflected. It is like once that plane starts to weathervane, the tendency is loathe to leave, requiring progressively more yaw input to counteract; (It seems to me that this -might- be related to why people are having such a bad time doing a forward slip for crosswind landings, as well). And to be clear, I'm not letting the bank angle increase or doing anything that I know off to require more rudder input.

I have noticed that climbing turns, without a target v/s, are fairly easy to coordinate (because you can just pull the nose through the turn with elevator), descending turns are the hardest to keep coordinated. Is this how the real 377 behaves? Who knows? I have noticed that this plane doesn't behave the way I would expect with asymmetric thrust, like during an engine out situation, in the sense that there doesn't seem to be that much tug towards the dead engine.

Again, not being a rw pilot, I can only judge the feel by other airplanes I've flown in FSX, of all shapes and sizes (ones with that are universally accepted to have 'good' flight models, not including swing wing jets with yaw dampers).

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

Yes.


That is exactly the problem with it. I suggest you get the ball centered on the first correction. Smooth but judicious rudder will have the ball swing nicely to center; just hold your input once it gets there and ignore it kicking out.


Simply put, unless A2A can work their magic into things, the FS flight model is at this kind of behavior. If you're not flying upright, straight, and level, it's porked.

Best regards,
Robin.

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A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

I have always thought the 377 had a very powerful rudder in FSX, usually requiring me to use very little effort through turns. Granted as the bank angle increases eventually I exceed the rudders ability to keep the plane in a coordinated turn. Same with the B-17G. Only at extreme bank angles have I ever experiences using max rudder (unless of course there is a cross wind involved).

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S Jordan
Milviz Staff Member
AM; United States Navy
FSX Hours: 2000 and counting

Roadburner, I'm experiencing this on Standard rate turns, which I take to mean the tick mark on the turn rate indicator, or the first tick on the Artificial horizon. I think that is about 30 degrees of bank. And it generally isn't the amount of rudder that is required, so much that it constantly feels like the plane is fundamentally unstable (LSAS + RCWS needed? ). I had thought that my sim-piloting skills were up to spec, but since nobody else seems to notice anything odd, I wonder I guess when Captain of the Ship comes out, I won't be any good at it. What kind of Captain are You?

VulcanB2: Where are you reading, or getting the information, that FSX turn coordination is innacurate? There seems to be many FS planes which have, to my knowledge, very accurate turning behavior, which mimic the control input harmonization of the thing that they are simulating.

I generally only fly payware, and obviously, I can't think of any plane I own that is in the same type category as the Stratocruiser. I have a number of good payware GA twins (cessna 310, Beech Duke), and I have all the best in payware Jets, but the Jets don't count because they all have yaw damping. Coordination in the simulated GA aircraft I have isn't anything like the Stratocruiser, but then again, I'm not sure I would expect it to be. The payware DC-2 that I sometimes fly, on the other hand is very very stable, perhaps too much so---it requires a bit of constant rudder, but maintaining a constant turn rate, bank angle, and altitude/vert speed is very easy.

So how did the Stratocruiser team verify that the hand flying behavior of their creation is as close to the real thing as possible? For instance, what do the C-97 Angel of Deliverance guys think of the controlability of the simulated airplane? (we already know they are fond of the system simulation and depth)

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

Hi,

You said it basically when you said "as close as possible".

Yes, other aircraft are wrong too, even if they appear to be correct by not kicking out after the first correction. Try holding them in a turn for several minutes and you will see.

It is very apparent in the P-47. You try a co-ordinated turn but the slip indicator keeps kicking out anyway. There is a thread started by me in the P-47 forum on this exact issue.

Try this test: set up for straight and level flight, and trim so it flies hands-off (seems obvious but fewer pilots do this than you think!). Roll to 20 degrees KEEPING THE RUDDER NEUTRAL. Let the aircraft stabilize. Now correct the side-slip with rudder and hold it. You will find you either end up with nearly full rudder input or the ball kicks out having already been centered.

Best regards,
Robin.

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A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

Darn, that p*sses me off to hear that. I believe what you say Vulcan, but to be honest, none of my other non-yaw-damped planes exhibit anywhere near this level of progressively-worsening adverse yaw. So I believe it is possible to at least make it better/more realistic, or as you say, less apparent (and I'm still not clear on how the real plane should behave, obviously...is anybody?).

Strangely, if one rolls into the turn, lets the nose drop briefly to establish a -500 vsi, and then yanks the nose into the turn to re-establish level flight, it remains largely coordinated with virtually no rudder required at all...But we shouldn't have to do that; that's just bizzare.

I know that this thread is ripe for a lot of people to come in and say "works fine for me, must be a personal problem, you stupid armchair pilot/rivet counter/malcontent" , but it sounds like there is something to this. Since the Captain of the Ship addon is going to evaluate the smoothness of our flying, I hope this is something that the developers are listening to. I imagine the real Stratocruiser was curmudgeonly enough as it is, so I hope the devs think it important to tweak the flight model and address this added complication, to the extent that is possible within FSX. (Or if they think that the plane is behaving as realistically as is possible, please don't hesitate to weigh in! I would love to be wrong.)

If the majority of people aren't having a problem with this, I wonder what they are doing, technique-wise?

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

...that's assuming they even realize it's wrong.

Off to test - back shortly.

Best regards,
Robin.

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A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

Back!!

It appears the B377 has insufficient rudder authority to turn the aircraft much more than 8 degrees in yaw, so if the correction angle is greater than this you have no hope of de-crabbing it.

I think I decided that slipping was the best way; roll into the wind with opposite rudder and keep the nose tracking down the runway. Vaguely familiar.

Best regards,
Robin.

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A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

Forward slipping doesn't seem to be much better, Vulcan. Doing wing-low crosswind landings is something I have gotten quite good at with every plane in my hangar, except for this one. Whether you are decrabbing just above the runway or going to wing-low at decision height really doesn't matter--you still have to ultimately cross the controls. I just can't master it in the Stratocruiser, even though I'm pretty sure I'm doing everything right.

This is all very frustrating because whether we are talking about simple things like basic coordinated turns, or more complex things like crosswind landings, you name it, I've spent hundreds of hours in FSX doing these things very well in other planes...but the Stratocruiser does not seem to be amenable to any of my techniques. The Stratocruiser is absolutely unmatched in terms of system depth and Cool Factor, but certain aspects of its flight model, namely its behavior in the yaw axis, are starting to turn me off a bit. ( I hated to say that, but its true)

After spending the last 20 or so FSX flight hours fighting at the controls of the Stratocruiser, and feeling a little bit suspicious that these 'concerns' might boil down to me just being a lousy pilot, I loaded up the Miviz Cessna 310. Rumor has it that this plane's Berndt Stolle flight dynamics are among the best in the biz, as far as stick and rudder work is concerned. I haven't flown this plane in months, but it felt like I had died and gone to Turn Coordination Heaven. I had absolutely no trouble whatsoever keeping that ball exactly where it should be throughout every range of the flight envelope. I felt like I had suddenly become the Sky King. Crosswind landings with one wing low? Kung Fu master, no sweat, or at least it felt like it.

Now while I'm not stupid enough to assume that the motor skills required to fly a smallish GA twin like the Cessna should translate directly to a big hunk of old metal like the Stratocruiser, I don't think they should go out the window either. The 377 might have been difficult to fly, but it couldn't have been that hard, could it have?.

I wish that I had spoken up, or weighed in on these issues months ago, but I just assumed it was a done deal, and was never going to be looked at ever again, so why complain. But now that an update is imminent, it is probably too late

Why the sound of crickets from the Development or the Beta teams? I would think that if what we are observing is actually correct behavior for this airplane, somebody would want to let us know I have no problem being humbled by a cantankerous plane that behaves realistically, it's primarily that I've lost some faith that it is exhibiting the correct behavior.

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

Hi,

After my testing I can only conclude that it is either:

* A Strat problem in that there is insufficient rudder authority

* FSX problem in that it is not swinging the nose far enough

* Some issue with inertia that is again FSX related that is preventing the nose swinging around

You maybe want to try altering the rudder effectiveness line in the aircraft.cfg, see if you can increase its effectiveness? It is a multiplier, so 2.0 would twice the effectiveness.

Best regards,
Robin.

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A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

The B377 was widely regarded to have an ineffective rudder in crosswinds due to its large fuselage. Remember, the rudder of the B377 is not much changed from the rudder of the B-50 upon which it is based. As a result, Boeing had to severely limit the crosswind capability of the aircraft and much care had to be taken on the ground in stiff winds to prevent the aircraft from weathervaning.

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