Landing questions

With the Flying Tigers shark-toothed paint, the P40 is the most famous fighter of the second world war.
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bigjuicyspider
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Landing questions

Post by bigjuicyspider »

I'm getting excited for the Accusim expansion, so it's time to start flying this thing like I mean business. Let's just say that I can't fly taildraggers worth a damn. I have some very specific questions:

1) Should approach be made on a typical 3 degree descent slope?
2) Should the flaps be deployed in stages? When should full flaps be deployed? (Short final??)
3) Should the aircraft be configured with any right rudder trim for landing?
4) Is it normal to completely run out of Nose Up Trim, when fully configured for landing and below 110 mph? (This plane looks nose heavy, so is this normal?)
3) What altitude or position relative to runway should the pilot begin to retard the power in anticipation of the flare, and how far should he pull the power back? How fast and to where? All the way?
4) Can someone give a flare technique which will result in a good 3 point landing, but not result in a float? Without the 3D depth perception of real life, and a big long nose blocking my view of most of the runway, I'm having some trouble judging this consistently
5) What should touchdown speed typically be?
6) What is the best way to hold the center line once you touch down, since you can't see in front of you?

I ask these questions because I'm showing an alarming tendency to plant the airplane too hard and have a bounce, or else flare too much or too soon and floating off the center line. Less than 50% of my landings are what I would call acceptable. I need some ballpark numbers to work with.
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DHenriques_
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Re: Landing questions

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bigjuicyspider wrote:I'm getting excited for the Accusim expansion, so it's time to start flying this thing like I mean business. Let's just say that I can't fly taildraggers worth a damn. I have some very specific questions:

1) Should approach be made on a typical 3 degree descent slope?
2) Should the flaps be deployed in stages? When should full flaps be deployed? (Short final??)
3) Should the aircraft be configured with any right rudder trim for landing?
4) Is it normal to completely run out of Nose Up Trim, when fully configured for landing and below 110 mph? (This plane looks nose heavy, so is this normal?)
3) What altitude or position relative to runway should the pilot begin to retard the power in anticipation of the flare, and how far should he pull the power back? How fast and to where? All the way?
4) Can someone give a flare technique which will result in a good 3 point landing, but not result in a float? Without the 3D depth perception of real life, and a big long nose blocking my view of most of the runway, I'm having some trouble judging this consistently
5) What should touchdown speed typically be?
6) What is the best way to hold the center line once you touch down, since you can't see in front of you?

I ask these questions because I'm showing an alarming tendency to plant the airplane too hard and have a bounce, or else flare too much or too soon and floating off the center line. Less than 50% of my landings are what I would call acceptable. I need some ballpark numbers to work with.
1. The best approach in these fighters is a close in circular approach.
2. Flaps as needed once under Vfe as dictated by the approach profile.
3. Normally the best rudder trim configuration for these fighters on final is to reset to takeoff trim setting which is actually the optimum setting for the first power reduction after takeoff. In these airplanes the best trim setup on final is for an anticipated go around.
4. Flare is needed to dissipate airspeed before touchdown. The trick is to do it right rather than try to avoid it. Length of flare will depend on airspeed over the fence. Get the over the fence speed right and the flare should be easy to control. Ideally you should plan to set the airplane down on the mains with the tail low. Just fly it on gently by controlling the sink rate as your airspeed bleeds off. The ideal situation is for the wheels to touch down at the exact point the lift BEGINS to cross your stall speed for your GW.
5. In the P40 at normal GW clean you should be able to fly final at around 100mph and then through your flare into a touchdown somewhere just above 75mph flaps full down.
6. Ah HA!! You have reached the uber-world of the tailwheel fighter pilot :-))) Flying these airplanes you have to develop the ability to deal with visual cues on each side of the lower windshield. You clear your nose area BEFORE the nose blocks your view then keep things EQUAL on each side of the nose by referencing each side looking through the lower parts of your windshield. With a little practice you will notice any tendency for movement and lateral direction.
This is how you deal with directional control in these fighters. It's an acquired skill. Remember, CLEAR the nose BEFORE it blocks your view, and run a constant cross check using the visual cues to each side. On the runway in a 3 point condition this will mean keeping the same amount of runway edge showing on each side of your lower windshield.
Dudley Henriques

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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Landing questions

Post by bigjuicyspider »

What about the Power reduction? As it currently stands, I've been approaching at about 105 mph, about 30-35" MP. How should I handle the power as I'm flaring. Should I chop it? Should I reduce it slowly to idle?

Also, the trim: I'm completely full nose up trim on Final, and it still isn't enough, so I have to hold it with the stick. I'm assuming this aircraft is nose heavy, and that this is all correct? (I'm more accustomed to flying the big simulated Jets which can almost be flown hands off when trimmed for the approach, so this is a bit awkward right now)
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DHenriques_
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Re: Landing questions

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bigjuicyspider wrote:What about the Power reduction? As it currently stands, I've been approaching at about 105 mph, about 30-35" MP. How should I handle the power as I'm flaring. Should I chop it? Should I reduce it slowly to idle?

Also, the trim: I'm completely full nose up trim on Final, and it still isn't enough, so I have to hold it with the stick. I'm assuming this aircraft is nose heavy, and that this is all correct? (I'm more accustomed to flying the big simulated Jets which can almost be flown hands off when trimmed for the approach, so this is a bit awkward right now)
Never "chop" anything power wise in an airplane, least of all these prop fighters. You ALWAYS need to treat that big fan up front with a great deal of respect. Rapid changes of power either way are very bad. Just be smooth and make small adjustments as you need them.
During the flare, as airspeed is decreasing, come back easily on the throttle to assist the landing. The trick is to play the airspeed and the power reduction in unison as you couple that with increasing back pressure to have it all come together for you as the wheels touch the runway.

On the trim; as long as the aircraft's cg is in range within the envelope you should have enough elevator trim to aid you in maintaining pitch. Remember (and a lot of pilots really don't quite understand this) you fly the airplane with the STICK not the trim. Trim is an aid, NOT a solution!
A P40 is indeed nose heavy as are all prop fighters but there is more than enough counter forces in play to take care of that as long as that cg is in the doghouse envelope wise.
By all means, use the trim on final but FLY the aircraft using stick input at whatever the airplane is telling you it needs.
Dudley Henriques

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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Landing questions

Post by bigjuicyspider »

Thanks Dudley,

Just one more question for now :) When we are doing a "close in circling approach", can you define that a bit more? On downwind, how far abeam the runway should I be, at what altitude AGL, and when should I begin my circle back? What rate of turn should I be aiming for (standard?) and approximately what fpm should I be descending as I'm doing the 180? Sorry that I'm pressing for ballpark numbers: I find it difficult to judge these things by feel within the confines of a non moveable sim and limited fields of view when flying VFR.
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DHenriques_
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Re: Landing questions

Post by DHenriques_ »

bigjuicyspider wrote:Thanks Dudley,

Just one more question for now :) When we are doing a "close in circling approach", can you define that a bit more? On downwind, how far abeam the runway should I be, at what altitude AGL, and when should I begin my circle back? What rate of turn should I be aiming for (standard?) and approximately what fpm should I be descending as I'm doing the 180? Sorry that I'm pressing for ballpark numbers: I find it difficult to judge these things by feel within the confines of a non moveable sim and limited fields of view when flying VFR.
Plan to fly your initial no lower than 1000 feet gal. Your airspeed at the break is optional. Just remember you want to be able to bleed the break airspeed back to your gear speed. Plan the approach so that when you reach your base turn you and about 1/4 mile off the end of the runway at about 500 feet.
Where you run up the prop, do your pre-landing housekeeping chores, and trim up are up to you and what the airplane is telling you it needs at any given instant in time during the approach. Use flaps as needed once under your flap speed. Remember, you'll have to re-trim for every flap setting and power change.
I'd plan the approach so that you are constantly descending rather than a flat approach. A flat approach in the P40 means reduced visual cues over the nose. Try and plan so that your power is reduced before you run up the prop. Saves the engine and your ears!
DH

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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Landing questions

Post by bigjuicyspider »

One Fourth Mile base, starting at 500 feet. Wow, that is a close circle! It looks like much practice is ahead of me.
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DHenriques_
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Re: Landing questions

Post by DHenriques_ »

bigjuicyspider wrote:One Fourth Mile base, starting at 500 feet. Wow, that is a close circle! It looks like much practice is ahead of me.
Practice is exactly how we approach these issues in real life. It's the same with the sim. Concentrate on doing the basics well and the rest will fall into place. If you screw up an approach, take it around just like we do in the real ones and give it another try.
Jot down some prime numbers and keep them handy as you fly.
It'll come!! Good luck.
DH

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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Landing questions

Post by bigjuicyspider »

Well, I won't be landing on any escort carriers in the near future, but it is an auspicious start! I had no idea that this is how it was really done and it will definitely take some getting used to. Still hard for me to believe how close to the runway this maneuver is occurring. (I think I remember seeing it done like this in 'Black Sheep Squadron', but I thought that was just for the cameras :) ) For whatever reason my 3 point touchdown performance has improved as well as my ability to hit on the center line. Probably not the world's greatest turn coordination, and I need to keep working on managing my rate of descent while not looking at the instruments, plus my turn rates, but I haven't had any bad landings result yet, and I probably just did it 10 times in a row. Thanks for your advice.
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Killratio
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Re: Landing questions

Post by Killratio »

Nice landing, if just a little overshoot on the base/final turn.

It always amazes me that you "fly the numbers" and it all just works!

Dudley.. fly with the elevators not the trim?? So THAT is why I keep getting all those "unfavourable" flight reviews on my file?? :lol:

Darryl
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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Landing questions

Post by bigjuicyspider »

Killratio wrote:Nice landing, if just a little overshoot on the base/final turn.
Oh, I meant to do that so I could better see the runway....NOT!
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DHenriques_
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Re: Landing questions

Post by DHenriques_ »

bigjuicyspider wrote:
Killratio wrote:Nice landing, if just a little overshoot on the base/final turn.
Oh, I meant to do that so I could better see the runway....NOT!
A little "inside trick" I'll pass on to you; On those close in base turns and short curving finals, if you find yourself a bit fast after the base turn and need to get slower quickly, try scrubbing off any excessive airspeed with rudder. Fishtailing the aircraft will bleed off some airspeed to drag.
On that 1/4 mile off the runway; it's not written in stone. This is a combat related approach and can easily be altered to further out if you desire. The point is that if you can do a good curved approach that close in you should be able to begin and execute a curved approach from most any point at all over a runway; a skill set any good fighter pilot found handy.
For sim flying, just plan your approaches to produce a steady curving flight path with a descent rate that keeps the visual cues in place and allows you to reach the end of the runway ready to flare and you'll have the curved approach pretty well under control.

DH

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blackhawks
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Re: Landing questions

Post by blackhawks »

I've been lurking and watching this thread quite a bit. Just wanted to throw in a thank you to you both for the landing lessons.
-mike

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