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 Post subject: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:28 pm 
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Okay, I realise that the A2A Spitfire is not by any means a new release, but I haven't had it that long. I've flown it even less.

I've had this addon for a while now, but apart from the initial test flight, I haven't flown it for any decent length of time. Today I realised why that is. I keep nosing it over when taxiing, and nearly nosing it on landing. Sometimes I have to restart the flight because I can't right the plane. It just sits there on its nose and I can't get back on 3 wheels. It's very annoying :(

I gave it a nice 1 and 1/2 hours today, and I must say that it is a beautiful aircraft. She flies really nice, handles really well, and generally "feels" great in the air. I've been getting some pretty good landings, albeit on the main gear most of the time. I don't seem to bounce much, which is mentioned elsewhere on the forums, which is good I think. I can pretty much control the brakes on landing. When the tail wheel comes up I release the brakes in time to stop the nose over, or add a bit of power to ease the tail down again. But I'm really having a hard time taxiing. I use rudder pedals, and the slightest touch sends the tail wheel sky high. We're talking very slow speeds here, and not enough time to react to the tail coming up. I learned very quickly to keep the speed down because of tipping over, and I don't do that anymore with any plane.

Has anyone on here any ideas how I can cure this please?

My install is fully updated, and I've tried, unsuccessfully, altering the pedals sensitivity. The brakes are just like a switch, on or off, no in between. Is this how it's supposed to be, or do I have something wrong?

Thanks for any responses in advance.

Tony

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Tony
Intel i7-2600 3.40GHz, 16GB DDR3-1600 Ram, GTX580 SC DS 1536MB Graphics, Corsair AX 850, Windows 7 Premium 64bit, FSX Gold Accel. REX Ess+ OD, TrackIR 5, Saitek Yoke, X52Pro, Radio, Switch, Multi Panel, Trim Wheel CH Rudder Pedals, FSUIPC.


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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Tony have a talk to Killratio he is a pilot and has the spit look at his post

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=14676

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:44 am
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Tigerclaw, I have that same problem on my microsoft force feed-back II using the trigger button for brakes, however when I use the default brake key on the keyboard the brakes work just fine. I don't know what it is but it's very annoying. Sorry i can't be of any help but I do feel your pain!


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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:33 pm 
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Norforce wrote:
Tony have a talk to Killratio he is a pilot and has the spit look at his post


Thanks Norforce, I will do that if he doesn't comment here. I've been following that post for ages, that is one nice sim pit he has :)

Marcus, thanks for the reply. There must be a setting in a config file somewhere, maybe Scott or Lewis will see this and point me in the right direction as to what to edit. It's the only thing spoiling it for me at the moment. Maybe it's just practice, but it just seems odd that a merest touch of the brakes can do this ;)

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Intel i7-2600 3.40GHz, 16GB DDR3-1600 Ram, GTX580 SC DS 1536MB Graphics, Corsair AX 850, Windows 7 Premium 64bit, FSX Gold Accel. REX Ess+ OD, TrackIR 5, Saitek Yoke, X52Pro, Radio, Switch, Multi Panel, Trim Wheel CH Rudder Pedals, FSUIPC.


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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:53 pm 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
Hi Guys,


OK, first, I have a good measure of real Tailwheel time but have not flown a Spitfire.

A few points on taxiing aircraft. Really this should never be done except at a SLOW walking pace. Most if not all taildraggers are tricky on the ground...full stop. There is an old wisdom which states that you never stop flying a taildragger until the key is out of the ignition. If an aircraft has a stall speed of, say 40mph, and you are taxiing at 20mph then it only takes a 21mph gust of wind and you are flying. This may not be convenient at that time...particularly if it is only one wing that takes the gust!! Now the Spitfire has a stalling speed without flaps of 79mph, so that should not
be a big problem however remember that is a “whole of aircraft” and “flying” figure. PARTS of the aircraft may be “flying” at well below this speed. She has a big wing and thus plenty of “sail area” to catch gusts and tip one way or the other.

They all have their different characteristics and these are usually noted in the Pilots Notes. The BF109 for instance was tail heavy on the ground and the brakes could be used at will with no problem (in fact I believe she is impossible to turn on the ground without hard brake and a good burst of power). The Spitfire is, on all Marques, nose heavy on the ground.
Any significant power, without a couple of people SITTING on the tail, will tip her if the brakes are on. It is specifically recommended that the Parking Brake NEVER be used for run-ups as if the tail lifts "there will be no time to release the brakes" and she will tip on her nose.
The Pilots Notes say (and I find on the A2A model) that the brakes may be used aggressively on the landing run to get the speed lower. The model works this way whilst the speed is still relatively high but once you have slowed they become more effective and can tip you.

I doubt brakes were really used overly on the ground as they recommend that taxiing the Spitfire should be accomplished with minimal braking in order to "save wear on the brakes" At that time the standard practice was to have a man at each wingtip whilst taxiing to help with turns etc!! Remember that at that time these aircraft were designed to operate off grass fields where you could just point into wind and go…..it is an entirely different kettle of fish to follow taxiways and use fixed asphalt runways. The aircraft and its brakes were never designed to do that!!

The Spit was also taxied with plenty of “jiggling” on the throttle and again the Pilots Notes caution against loosening the friction to make it easier to taxi as the throttle is spring loaded to “closing”. Not nice to get to 50 ft and whilst changing hands to pull up the gear, have the throttle shut itself!

Now, after prattleing on far too long..some specific suggestions which from my research over the years appears to apply both to the real aircraft and the A2A bird:

1. NEVER taxi the Spitfire at more than fast walking pace and NEVER with the flaps down. Get those beasts out of your airflow as soon as you have slowed on landing roll..they yield a huge nose down pitch moment. (and incidentally destroy any radiator airflow that the gear has not already blocked).

2. On the ground NEVER have the stick anywhere but FULL back from just before the engine is started until letting it go to NEUTRAL once she is light on the wheels during takeoff run (elevator trim one half division BELOW neutral will make her "fly off" in the correct atttitude). On landing , if you have done it right, you will end up with full up elevator...so leave it there whilst taxiing in.

3 DO NOT ever taxi down wind unless absolutely necessary. If you MUST then I would recommend against the standard “down elevator” whilst doing it. Let the elevators to neutral at the most (and unless there is a stiff wind I still use full back, that big Merlin throws enough breeze back to tip the balance against the standard rule IMHO).

4Use Parking Brakes only until engine start.

5 Try using differential braking as this seems to keep the tail from lifting.

6 Turn using bursts of power rather than the brake. I generally only use the brakes to turn from a stand still. (for instance don’t coast up to the runway end if backtracking and then try to turn round on the move to line up….coast up to the end..stop..then use differential brake and power to spin you round to line up.

7 Remember you are in a taildragger, designed for open grass field operations, with very little rudder authority at low speed, a fully castoring tail wheel (not steerable), and large wing area to catch gusts….she is ALWAYS going to be a handful on the ground!!

Specific to the sim…I believe that the brakes key increases power depending on how long it is held down..therefore try “tapping” the brake key. There may be some difference between how many “repeats” per second a joystick button and a keyboard key throw out. So they may differ in their actual braking effect.

In general when moving only use differential brakes. And move slowly!! If you “S” Turn when taxiing there are two benefits.. firstly you are doing what real pilots do to check the ground ahead of a taildragger and secondly, you will have to taxi slowly or it gets up an alarming swing which should frighten you into slowing down!!

The differential brakes on the A2A Spitfire are great but the “both brakes” might be a little too likely to raise the tail….maybe not…I am sure it will get looked at when they Accusim the old girl.


Darryl

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:16 am 
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Thanks for the insight Darryl, I'll try using the differential braking more. I'm not at all surprised the Spit is nose heavy, it has a massive engine in the front, and nothing in the tail :lol:

I don't use the keyboard unless I have to, I set up my joystick for all the major flight controls, or use the VC click spots as if I was actually inside the cockpit. So I wouldn't have known about the differences in the brake key and rudder pedals. I might have a look into giving the brake axis on the pedals a much bigger null zone so it needs more than just a touch apply brakes. Or look into the functions of FSUIPC as I have the full version.

Thanks for your help here Darryl :D

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Intel i7-2600 3.40GHz, 16GB DDR3-1600 Ram, GTX580 SC DS 1536MB Graphics, Corsair AX 850, Windows 7 Premium 64bit, FSX Gold Accel. REX Ess+ OD, TrackIR 5, Saitek Yoke, X52Pro, Radio, Switch, Multi Panel, Trim Wheel CH Rudder Pedals, FSUIPC.


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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:21 am
Posts: 76
Location: LFPN-LFSL-LSGP
Bonjour everybody,

I am new on this forum, and a new user of A2ASimulations products (P47 Accusim and Spitfire MK1) which are very, very high quality ! :wink:

On Spitfire, I encountered same problem with brakes...had a lot of "nose dropping" :oops: (using Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback)

I have tried to adjust level of power as shown on screenshot, without success. I am using now keyboard button ;

Image

Have a nice day :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:21 am
Posts: 76
Location: LFPN-LFSL-LSGP
Hello everybody,

I am new on this forum and using recently A2ASimulations products (P47 Accusim, Spitfire MK1), which are very, very high quality ! :wink:

I encountered same problem as you with brakes, lot of "nose dropping" :oops:

Have tried to adjust force like shown on screenshot, but without success (Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback)

Image

Using now keyboard button ";"

Have a nice day :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:16 am 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm
Posts: 5264
Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
Bonjour Jean,

At the most, tap the brake button, do not hold it down. The brakes are on off if you tap but proportional to the length of time held if you just push the button and keep it there. This is a restriction of FSX, not the model. A real Spitfire can not have hard braking used under most circumstances but unfortunately the button is not "keeping" the brakes on whilst you hold them but rather INCREASING the power to the brakes. Holding for more than a second or so is the equivilent of braking hard...and it doesn't end well in a Spitty!!

Try assigning a left brake button and right brake button, or better still set up braking through FSUIPC.

AND, like the rest of us, get in line for the Accusim Spitfire, I have no doubt she will be a beauty!!!



Darryl

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:49 am 
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Killratio wrote:
Bonjour Jean,

At the most, tap the brake button, do not hold it down. The brakes are on off if you tap but proportional to the length of time held if you just push the button and keep it there. This is a restriction of FSX, not the model. A real Spitfire can not have hard braking used under most circumstances but unfortunately the button is not "keeping" the brakes on whilst you hold them but rather INCREASING the power to the brakes. Holding for more than a second or so is the equivilent of braking hard...and it doesn't end well in a Spitty!!

Try assigning a left brake button and right brake button, or better still set up braking through FSUIPC.

AND, like the rest of us, get in line for the Accusim Spitfire, I have no doubt she will be a beauty!!!



Darryl


Bonjour Darryl,

Thanks for you reply and your interesting comments. :wink:

I pilot this Spitfire like a woman ! Smoothly :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:37 pm 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm
Posts: 5264
Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
Ah, the French...

Being an Aussie, I treat her like a woman also....so with me it is more like "fiddle with the starter a bit and then swear because she won't go"... then give up and go and have a beer.... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:54 pm 
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I always kick her in the ass between swearing and going for a bear :twisted:

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Intel i7-2600 3.40GHz, 16GB DDR3-1600 Ram, GTX580 SC DS 1536MB Graphics, Corsair AX 850, Windows 7 Premium 64bit, FSX Gold Accel. REX Ess+ OD, TrackIR 5, Saitek Yoke, X52Pro, Radio, Switch, Multi Panel, Trim Wheel CH Rudder Pedals, FSUIPC.


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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:19 pm 
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your going for a bear?? Aaah your the fluffy type :)

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 Post subject: Re: Spitfire brakes
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:36 pm 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm
Posts: 5264
Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
Tigerclaw wrote:
I always kick her in the ass between swearing and going for a bear :twisted:



Gee you sensitive new age types REALLY get me fed up......if you do that they tell their friends and then they will ALL want a kick up the a$$. :?


(Oh, and I never could stand Animists) :twisted:

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