Froogle and FSW

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Stafford Brown
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by Stafford Brown »

I've listened to Novawing and the Go-around and a few other Youtubers on the subject. I don't understand why they blame the failure on the communities harsh criticism and viscously defend Dovetail. It sounds as if they are defending a great group of hobbyists with a big heart who went out to do this on their own.

Dovetail bought they rights back in 2014 and got everyone all excited saying they were working on a new sim in 2015. These defenders go on and on and on oh they built so much in just a few short years and everyone was so harsh...........?

They bought FSX, they bought rights to bake in Accu-sim, they bought rights to bake in Orbx FTX Global, Carenado made some of the aircraft, then at they end they bought True Sky. When a new flight sim comes out lets be honest, it's like PlayStation vs X-Box vs Nintendo. Everyone is waiting on standby you don't wanna buy it and BOOM all the cool games come out for the OTHER platform.

X-Plane and P3D released their x64 sims in spring 2017? How long can we all wait for Dovetail while the new x64 sims are out.
I was nervous about Buying P3D pro and waiting and waiting on Flight Sim World and that last 6 months just watching and people saying, ok guys we need lights, we need ATC, then they released all these stupid mission packs. That's when I thought, ok this isn't going well, somethings not right - it took them three years just to get here. I bought P3D Pro just weeks ago so happy I did.

I'm sure their management furious. 8 salaries maybe x 3 years and all the other costs? They probably felt they lost millions for nothing. Think about it, how would you feel as a business owner if you spent 4 million dollars on a small crew to develop your new billing system and after three years all they had was a new menu an a few features but everyone said "meh" would rather use the old one - you'd be LIVID.

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Stafford Brown
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by Stafford Brown »

I've listened to Novawing and the Go-around and a few other Youtubers on the subject. I don't understand why they blame the failure on the communities harsh criticism and viscously defend Dovetail. It sounds as if they are defending a great group of hobbyists with a big heart who went out to do this on their own.

Dovetail bought they rights back in 2014 and got everyone all excited saying they were working on a new sim in 2015. These defenders go on and on and on oh they built so much in just a few short years and everyone was so harsh...........?

They bought FSX, they bought rights to bake in Accu-sim, they bought rights to bake in Orbx FTX Global, Carenado made some of the aircraft, then at they end they bought True Sky. When a new flight sim comes out lets be honest, it's like PlayStation vs X-Box vs Nintendo. Everyone is waiting on standby you don't wanna buy it and BOOM all the cool games come out for the OTHER platform.

X-Plane and P3D released their x64 sims in spring 2017? How long can we all wait for Dovetail while the new x64 sims are out.
I was nervous about Buying P3D pro and waiting and waiting on Flight Sim World and that last 6 months just watching and people saying, ok guys we need lights, we need ATC, then they released all these stupid mission packs. That's when I thought, ok this isn't going well, somethings not right - it took them three years just to get here. I bought P3D Pro just weeks ago so happy I did.

I'm sure their management furious. 8 salaries maybe x 3 years and all the other costs? They probably felt they lost millions for nothing. Think about it, how would you feel as a business owner if you spent 4 million dollars on a small crew to develop your new billing system and after three years all they had was a new menu an a few features but everyone said "meh" would rather use the old one - you'd be LIVID.

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Paul K
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by Paul K »

Thinking further about DTG taking legal action, LM are probably beyond reproach because users have to indicate they agree to license's terms and conditions ( notice how I'm desperately trying not to use that four-letter initialism beginning with E ). LM did all they realistically could at their end, and in fact it's us non-student home users who are in breach of contract. I'll blame Lewis.

sotafaz
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by sotafaz »

all things considered this isn't surprising. DFS looked doomed from my perspective

-Poor "release" timing given that XP-11 was on the way and much more developed.
-Nothing other then light to medium GA aircraft in the starting line up. as much as i think most people here didn't mind that
There are a lot of big iron simmers that they missed out on.
-Graphically I wasn't impressed smelled of EURO truck sim lol not bad but not what I wanted in a flight sim.

As far as LM why even attempt to attack em? Different sims with different philosophies and a brand best known for train sim DLC isn't going to win that battle anyway.

Currently i believe P3D is where sims are heading given the great add-on base. and the new capabilities V4 offered.
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CAPFlyer
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by CAPFlyer »

I already called out Froogle for some of his "editorial" because it was based on false information and he's been nice enough to respond and keep it civil. I think he was operating 90% on emotion and not actually doing research on what happened or who was making the statements. He relied a LOT on Mathjis and Robert's statements, two people who should be the last to be trusted when it comes to anything relating to FSW or DTG (I detail why in my comments on the video, so I won't post them here).

The part about Dovetail suing LM is ludicrous. Had FSW become a full "gold" product, there may have been a push by DTG to get Microsoft to force LM to enforce their license restrictions, but it wouldn't have gone beyond that. But they didn't. In fact, it looks like the reason FSW was cancelled was simple - DTG doesn't have the money to make its next royalty installment to Microsoft for the Entertainment License and hit a deadline where they either had to make the money in the next 30 days or cancel the program and announce defaulting on it (link to that thread at AVSIM with the information and more links in my 3rd reply to the original comment).

What it looks like will happen is that the Entertainment license will revert to Microsoft on or about 1 July. After that, it's entirely likely Microsoft will put it up for bid again at some point. Who knows, maybe that same group that bid on it before will bid again and it might go somewhere. But I doubt it because Microsoft saw what that group did to DTG after they won the bid. They were the loudest detractors and flat out lied about what happened and what DTG did afterward to paint DTG in a bad light from the start.
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by CodyValkyrie »

CAPFlyer wrote: They were the loudest detractors and flat out lied about what happened and what DTG did afterward to paint DTG in a bad light from the start.
Not to get too far down this rabbit hole, but I think this is the worst part about all of this. Many may disagree, but generally speaking, I've never had many issues with how DTG runs as a business. I've owned quite a bit of their software, and they previously had done work with Microsoft (purchasing Train Simulator). They seemed like relatively honest folks, despite all the trash talking about the cost of train addons, but I really didn't see it any different to how addons for Flight Simulator work. *shrugs* What I find appalling is the armchair disembowelment by certain members of the development community, some of which I used to work with. I'm still puzzled why some of them even needed to say anything at all. It just seems like DTG just bit off perhaps more than they could chew, and the sales didn't follow, especially with the pressure of releasing their flagship Train Sim World. I expected more from our community, and especially those who have some influence.
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Carlos2297
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by Carlos2297 »

Something I don't understand is the way some developers are claiming that dtg wanted to take a big part of the money involved in every add on purchase, monopolising the market and completely disrupting the community, but from what I could see, dtg clearly stated that developers could still offer their add ons through their own platforms instead of through steam, and the only difference would be that the add ons wouldn't be officially supported.

Now, how different is this from the arrangement developers had with Microsoft and its many flight simulators over the last 2 decades?

I don't think dtg tried to enforce a steam only option for the distribution of add ons and as so some of the statements I've read on the subject confuse me a lot.
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CodyValkyrie
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by CodyValkyrie »

Carlos, that was my understanding as well. The way this whole thing has been portrayed has been disturbing.
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scubaboy
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by scubaboy »

I would love to see LM purchase the entertainment license and sell an entertainment version as well!

Dogsbody55
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by Dogsbody55 »

The thing with FSW is that it was a solid product, as good as any other sim presently on the market. But it was incomplete. Let's be clear here. The developers did a great job with what they released, and in a much shorter time frame than any other sim. LM have had P3D since 2005, and the first version out in 2009, if I remember correctly, and it really only started to become something more than FSX with version 3. XPlane has been on the market for over 20 years, and it's only XP11 that is getting critical acclaim. Development takes time. Given that DTG have only been working on FSW for 4 years or so, their development team have done very well. Scenery was excellent out of the box, and flight modelling was of a similar standard to other sims, out of the box. Out of the box, flight modelling in all sims is lacking. Challenges and the inbuilt career mode were great fun. None of the other sims offered a career mode out of the box as far as I'm aware. Let us also not forget that it was cheaper than P3D and XP11.

There was also a lot of misinformation out there as well, some of which was promulgated by those who ultimately did themselves a disservice. As a result, too many were only too willing to believe some of the rubbish spouted by these so called authorities. People who didn't buy the product, so didn't check for themselves. If you didn't buy the product, you should at very least have the integrity to put that statement in your comments about the sim. For example, it may true that only official addons could be marketed through DTG or Steam, but very few addons for FSX, P3D or XP11 are official addons. If you wanted to develop an addon for FSW, be it freeware or payware, you were free to do so as you wished, just as with all the other sims. Alas in this age of instant news and social media, there is more incorrect information, innuendo, agenda-pushing, fake news, conspiracy theory and even malicious statements to overwhelm us all to the point where we have to do our own research to find a glimmer of the truth. This makes me wonder what is the point of instant news and social media. It's being abused, folks.!!!

I bought the product for a number of reasons, some of which were related to my belief that a new MS FSX style platform was needed for all, at a reasonable price and one in which I could use some of my existing addons. However, I started to become concerned when DTG closed what was effectively early alpha development and appeared to be marketing it as a completed work. Something was amiss and at odds with the developer's statements. Of course, developers don't have the final say. The suits do.

I think DTG were too ignorant of the market they were attempting to join, and their marketing was poor. If they had developed the sim a little more, adding in jets and helicopters for example, then they may have had a better chance. I can't quite figure out why jets/helicopters weren't added sooner, given the FSX flight modelling of the included planes. Instead, they chose to push addons such as careers and challenges to raise cash quickly, as they were running out of cash for it's further development. They should also have promoted the developers kit much more, as this may have generated more interest in the sim. All of this is the fault of management who must accept much of the blame for FSW's demise.

Flightsim is about passion and to be successful you have to build this first, before the dollars will flow. Clearly DTG's management did not understand this as they splashed money around and allowed it to be marketed so poorly. For marketing inspiration, you only have to see what the best sites are doing, such as A2A in the way they promote people's use of the product. To be putting out new DLC to buy 2 days before you pull the product is totally unacceptable, and I can completely understand why people might think that all DTG want is your money, not really caring about the product. DTG should be pulling the product from all stores immediately, both download or the physical disc set that is in games stores. To not do so is also totally unacceptable.

As to whether lawyers get involved as Froogle suggests, I've said what I think previously so I'll only reiterate my hope that they don't. I'm annoyed that FSW has been pulled for the reasons I've tried to set out above. I'm also dismayed, as I think it's a bad day for the whole flightsim community when a new sim is abandoned.

I wish the developers and coders well and hope they find other gainful employment soon.


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CodyValkyrie
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by CodyValkyrie »

Mike, I think you’ve put it very elequently. I can only concur.
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n421nj
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by n421nj »

They should follow DCS format. Create a world and then have different add ons for that world. Be it airplanes or trains or boats. I think it would be cool being in a world where one person is flying and another is driving a train. Then you are not just relying on the aviation community for sales.
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Stafford Brown
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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by Stafford Brown »

I found this review on steam of "The Last Frontier" mission pack. This part resonated with me strongly when I watched some videos of the Missions Packs. I think the Epic Approaches mission packs it was Stephen Hood and Aimee themselves doing the voices? I recognized the voices and thought oh my gosh things must not be going right if they can't even get a voice actor for just 1 day to assist.


From Review on Steam.
"""" Also please start using professional voice artists, rather than random guy from the office. The most distracting part of the whole mission pack is the lack lustre performance of the actors, who at times sound like they just do not want to be there."""""

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
POSTED: FEBRUARY 16
Whilst I like what this is trying to do, the missions are just not that interesting. If you’re going to produce something like this, then it should be a showcase for what the platform is capable of.

However, the scenery appears to be made up of a very low number of polygons, and often looks like something out of a game from the early 90's with very visible sharp angles. I realise that this is still early access, and don’t get me wrong I love FSW and can’t wait to see where it is going, but I just feel that this mission pack was a rushed missed opportunity.

Also please start using professional voice artists, rather than random guy from the office. The most distracting part of the whole mission pack is the lack lustre performance of the actors, who at times sound like they just do not want to be there.

If you want to support the development of what I believe has the potential to be an awesome flight sim then buy this as I did. However, if you’re after some exciting flying it may be best to hold off, instead use the pennies you would of spend on this, on the Just Flight - PA-28R Arrow III, which actually does show what this simulator is capable of.

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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by MarcE »

The specific scenario I'm more worried about is related to LM starting to enforce that from their own standpoint,
Why should they... they haven‘t cared for years about all those youtube-guys competing for the top 10 of „who makes te best NGX tutorial“ using the academical license. Both main licenses are so obviously used for entertainment and nobody has ever cared about. LM gets some extra money but 140$ more or less per license... an enterprise of that size has other reasons to develop a „game“ than making money. How should they even enforce it? Checking the school attendance of every owner of the academical license? ^^ they haven‘t cared and they won‘t care. And if DTG tried to sue them they would probably roll their eyes at best...

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Re: Froogle and FSW

Post by MarcE »

And if they ditched the aca license we‘d have to pay 200$ every two or three years (if we want to be up to date)... wayne... honest people to that anyway.

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