New rudder pedals - learning how to fly all over again

[Paughco]

Got a set of rudder pedals from Thrustmaster. Hey, I like my TM joystick and throttle, so I decided to get their rudder pedals. They work fine. A little close together, but that means they fit between the base kicker and power strip under my computer desk. I was wondering if rudder pedals would work with my exercise ball computer chair, but so far that has been working.

What better way to get the feel of my new rudder pedals than by practicing touch and goes in my T-6? I've been using a twist stick since the '90s; but I have used rudder pedals in Cessna 140s and 150s, back in the '60s. It's a whole new ball game, trying to get my feet to move the rudder quickly as needed, just enough, not too much so as to cause ever increasing nose swings and eventual ground loop. First few approaches were with no flaps, to facilitate the subsequent takeoff, so I kept the airspeed on final at around 90 knots. During the course of all this fooling around, I think that maybe the best way to get the feel for my rudder pedals would be to do a wheel landing, then keep the airplane going in a straight line while keeping the tail up, then lift off at the end of the runway. I'll go back and practice that a bit. My last landing, with full flaps and 3-point touchdown went pretty well.

One thing that helped was place my heels on the "deck" while in the air, and move my feet up on the pedals when taxiing, as shown in this US Navy training film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZmEha ... 0A&index=4.

Seeya
ATB

[Medtner]

I know how you feel - the "learning all over again" is something I felt too. Before Yule I splurged on new pedals (and new yoke).

I got the MFG's, and it's an extreme differene from my old Saitek Cessna pedals. The resolution and response is so different, but in a good way.
You probably made it especially difficult for yourself by doing the practice in the T6. It doesn't forgive bad rudder-treatment, so you may be spanked.

The last month I've been exclusively flying the Cessna 172, since I just started flying in PilotEdge and wanted something that wouldn't get away from me while I'm on the radio. I've learned to fly all over again too, but the 172 is docile and nice compared to the '6. Someday I will venture onto the ground-looping adventure you're on right now.

[DHenriques_]

Got a set of rudder pedals from Thrustmaster. Hey, I like my TM joystick and throttle, so I decided to get their rudder pedals. They work fine. A little close together, but that means they fit between the base kicker and power strip under my computer desk. I was wondering if rudder pedals would work with my exercise ball computer chair, but so far that has been working.

What better way to get the feel of my new rudder pedals than by practicing touch and goes in my T-6? I've been using a twist stick since the '90s; but I have used rudder pedals in Cessna 140s and 150s, back in the '60s. It's a whole new ball game, trying to get my feet to move the rudder quickly as needed, just enough, not too much so as to cause ever increasing nose swings and eventual ground loop. First few approaches were with no flaps, to facilitate the subsequent takeoff, so I kept the airspeed on final at around 90 knots. During the course of all this fooling around, I think that maybe the best way to get the feel for my rudder pedals would be to do a wheel landing, then keep the airplane going in a straight line while keeping the tail up, then lift off at the end of the runway. I'll go back and practice that a bit. My last landing, with full flaps and 3-point touchdown went pretty well.

One thing that helped was place my heels on the "deck" while in the air, and move my feet up on the pedals when taxiing, as shown in this US Navy training film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZmEha ... 0A&index=4.

That's exactly the right way to use pedals both in the sim and in the real airplane.
For the serious simmer there is no substitute for a good set of pedals. I've used them all except TM. The MFG's are excellent. Right now I'm testing the ones from Virtual-Fly. They also are excellent.
Be careful with that wheel landing, tracking down the runway then going around. It's very easy in the process to forget coming out of full flaps as you concentrate on maintaining lateral control. No sweat if you do. Just be ready on the trim while holding the nose down during rotation.
Dudley Henriques

Seeya
ATB

[dvm]

Unfortunately most of the pedals out there are designed to place your feet on the pedals which is of course not how one uses rudder pedals in the real world which Dudley described. Some of the German war birds had pedals that you placed your entire foot on and actually had straps to hold your feet place but that configuration is not very common. I have always modified my flight sim pedals so I can use them correctly. Even my MFG crosswind pedals had to be modified with new pedals so I could use them correctly comfortably. You can adjust the angle of the crosswind pedals out of the box so you can use the balls of your feet when flying and then slide your feet up when taxing but the bottom of the pedal is still too close to the floor and you have the heal stop cutting into your feet unless you fly with combat boots. I even discussed this with the creator of the Crosswind pedals and he indicated he had considered this configuration early on but went with the current layout. He also mentioned it might be considered for an option someday. Every improvement to the ergonomics of your controls will payoff with more precision. You can usually modify existing pedals by making a block to modify the bottom end of the pedal and mount the pedal assembly in a more vertical position or as I did with my crosswinds make new pedals. In my opinion the crosswinds with the new pedals is as good as it gets So if you have pedals you might consider improving the ergonomics with some simple changes as in the attached photos. Creating your own stuff is also fun.

[Paughco]

Guys: Thank you for the words of wisdom.

Just parked my T-6 after converting ten gallons of avgas into noise over Arlington Airport (KAWO). I'm starting to get the feel for the pedals. Did one touch and go with no flaps. Keeping her tail in the air, I fast taxied her down the runway and managed to keep her out of the weeds the whole way, then advanced the throttle, and off we went. Full stop three pointers, with full flaps, are getting easier. After a couple more sessions with real weather I'll set up a 6 knot crosswind and practice side slipping on final.

The Thrustmaster pedals are a bit narrow, but I don't have a whole lot of room under my computer table, so that's a plus in this case. I ditched my large exercise ball for a more conventional computer chair and that helps. The last landing of the day felt pretty good. I can tell that things will continue to improve as I get the feel for the pedals and they become second nature.

Needless to say, the Comanche is MUCH more forgiving on landings than the T-6, so I plan to use my Comanche on the group flight tomorrow (https://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewto ... 79&t=62612).

Seeya
ATB

[Taka taka]

Rotate
Heels down!

[Hoots]

I fly gliders irl so use the rudder a LOT and it still took me a while to get used to using them in the sim. I couldn't go back to a twist stick now though.

[shortspecialbus]

Unfortunately most of the pedals out there are designed to place your feet on the pedals which is of course not how one uses rudder pedals in the real world which Dudley described. Some of the German war birds had pedals that you placed your entire foot on and actually had straps to hold your feet place but that configuration is not very common. I have always modified my flight sim pedals so I can use them correctly. Even my MFG crosswind pedals had to be modified with new pedals so I could use them correctly comfortably. You can adjust the angle of the crosswind pedals out of the box so you can use the balls of your feet when flying and then slide your feet up when taxing but the bottom of the pedal is still too close to the floor and you have the heal stop cutting into your feet unless you fly with combat boots. I even discussed this with the creator of the Crosswind pedals and he indicated he had considered this configuration early on but went with the current layout. He also mentioned it might be considered for an option someday. Every improvement to the ergonomics of your controls will payoff with more precision. You can usually modify existing pedals by making a block to modify the bottom end of the pedal and mount the pedal assembly in a more vertical position or as I did with my crosswinds make new pedals. In my opinion the crosswinds with the new pedals is as good as it gets So if you have pedals you might consider improving the ergonomics with some simple changes as in the attached photos. Creating your own stuff is also fun.

Can you share some specifics on how you made that MFG modification? I love my MFG pedals but I had the same issue that you talk about, but I just sort of accepted it and didn't try to change it. That looks intriguing.

-stefan

[dvm]

stefan,

It is really not too difficult to make new pedals. If you remove one of the existing pedals (two cap head machine screws) you will see how they are mounted. It took me a couple of tries before I came up with a design I liked. I finally used a piece of laminate flooring. I have used this material for all kinds of projects. The back of the material is smooth and without texture so there is no finishing required except for the edges. If you know anyone who has had a laminate floor installed there is usually lots of scraps left over or you could buy a sample or a board from one of the home improvement centers. My pedals are 4.5 x 19 inches. The holes are strictly for looks and are optional. Mine are similar to the look of the P-38 pedals. Make yourself a cardboard template and cut the pedals out with a jigsaw, scroll saw or band saw and smooth the edges. The mounting position and angle of the pedals is to be determined by your own tastes. The adjustable angle of the crosswinds makes them very versatile. I originally mounted them without enough clearance between the floor and the bottom of the pedal. I didn't want to make new pedals or drill a second set of mounting holes so I made a metal plate to change the vertical position of the pedals (see the link). Just make sure you drill the two mounting holes in each pedals so they are in the proper vertical position to start with after determining where you want the pedals. What you are after is the balls of your feet to fall naturally at the bottom of the pedals with your heals on the floor. The half round at the bottom of my pedals is just a split piece of 1.5 inch dowel. The original mounting screws are metric and they may be long enough to reusue if not just take them to the hardware store and acquire the right length and thread. One last consideration is the coil brake spring. I wanted my pedals to be as close together as possible as I find the Crosswinds to be a little too far apart. So I mounted them as far inboard as possible which caused some interference between the bottom of the pedal and the spring so you may need some washers between the bottom of the pedals and the mounting flange so the pedals will be level. I used non skid paint which comes in a spray can (Rustoleum truck bed coating works great available everywhere). This explanation sounds a lot more complex than it really is just think it through step by step. It is just a piece of painted laminate flooring with holes drilled in it. Let me know if you need any other info or help.
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 23&t=52774

Vince

PS If possible your pedals should be securely mounted so they will not slide around. All my controls are rigidly mounted which makes for much more precise inputs.

[dvm]

Some more thoughts on the new pedals. The retaining screws on the stock pedals are countersunk and use cap head screws. If you use the laminate flooring it is not thick enough to allow you to countersink the retaining screws. I used button head screws for the new pedals and they do not cause any problems as they can hardly be felt even without shoes. The screws by the way are 6mm course thread the length to be determined by your installation.

[shortspecialbus]

Thank you! I'm out of town for the week but I'm going to look into this next week. It can join my short list of "probably can do" projects that currently consists of "Create some sort of yoke mount for my aviation timer, since it's unreadable if attached directly to the yoke at a straight angle."

This list is notably different from the other list which has things like "construct spitfire cockpit" and "construct comanche cockpit" and I suppose "construct b737 cockpit."

-stefan

[DHenriques_]

Just as an addendum to all of the above, I would note that through the years I've tested rudder pedals from almost every manufacturer from Ch Products to MFG and Virtual Fly. Although it's true most sim pedals "encourage" the feet to be placed totally on the pedal which is counter to proper pedal use in an airplane, it is possible using a bit of initiative to use the sim pedals properly.
First one must come to grips with the fact that most sim pilots have a tendency to use brake where brake isn't needed (or shouldn't be needed). Because it's so easy to use the brakes in the sim it's quite natural to find oneself using brake by tapping them deferentially. Once one realizes this is happening a change in how you use the pedals can occur.
Even with close together pedals like CH, one can let the heels down below the lower lip of the pedals and find the floor. Then you simply let the foot "rest" on the pedals and raise the foot when brake is needed (which should be seldom really).
The bottom line is to NOT fall into the manufacturer's "trap" where you place your feet where by design the manufacturer wants you to put them and has designed the pedals so that it seems quite natural to follow the design.
Nobody should be placing both feet off the floor and totally onto their pedals.
The trick is to do it right regardless of how the pedal has been designed.
Trust me, this will work, and you'll feel normal in no time. Pushing a pedal using the total leg is gamer's territory. Using the ankles as a fulcrum and pushing the pedal with the balls of the feet is pilot's territory.
Be a PILOT !! LOL
Dudley Henriques

[Anawake]

I got the MFG's, and it's an extreme differene from my old Saitek Cessna pedals. The resolution and response is so different, but in a good way.
You probably made it especially difficult for yourself by doing the practice in the T6. It doesn't forgive bad rudder-treatment, so you may be spanked.

Absolutely!

Before the MFGs I had trouble to translate to the RW.

I would recommend no other rudder pedals.

[Caldemeyn]

I had the thrustmaster rudder pedals for some time and despite their claims that one can easily use these with the feet on the floor, im not really able to do this comfortably, they just aren't shaped for it. To add, if the weight of the legs is not distributed evenly on them, they tend to stick. The fact that the rails on which the pedals move are not parallel to the floor but at an angle puts even more pressure on the mechanism. You have to lift your legs a bit to take their weight off the pedals and then apply the movements, if you want a smooth action. I'd rather return to my old saitek's or buy mfg's

[AKar]

Lusting after the MFG pedals myself! At 320 € VAT included, it won't come cheap though. I have Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals as of now, but I am not completely happy with them in terms of feel and accuracy. Plus the tow brakes are too sensitive, IMO. The pedals are easy, though, to use "correctly" with your heels on the floor.

As a sidenote I liked how the pedals work in gliders; that is, they tilt like car pedals (obviously while moving together!). So you don't have to bend your knees in the tight space under the instrument panel. This is possible because their wheel brakes don't use pedal toes to actuate. With those it is easy to make the constant adjustments needed in many gliders. I recall when first trying a Cessna, I learned the hard way how little rudder they actually need. After takeoff and lowering the nose from the initial climb, I was to take my first left turn..while smoothly turning the wheel, I confidently pushed the pedal in maybe third of the way or even more, kicking the plane sideways over the runway. The instructor said nothing but had this precious, very surprised look. "What the...!!?"

-Esa