A2A and Flightsim World

This is the place where we can all meet and speak about whatever is on the mind.
User avatar
Medtner
A2A Mechanic
Posts: 1350
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 10:10
Location: Arendal, Norway
Contact:

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by Medtner »

Regarding the P3D-thing, I've been using the Academic License - no government officials pounding down my door to have me grab ankle.

A couple of weeks ago John Venema of Orbx (who seem to be in the "in" with this stuff) said the following:

"Just purchase the Academic License for (I think) $69 which can legally be used to teach yourself pilotage and cockpit procedures just as you would in a flight school simulator. In fact, over 65% of all Orbx customers now use P3D and there is no legal issue at all with using that product."

Seems to be rather clear that we can easily justify the usage of the Academic License.


Initially I was very disturbed by this license thing, but having thought about it it makes all kinds of sense. For LM to be able to produce this for the gov and military it can't be a "game". It needs to have a professional ring to it. Thus the licensing system. The 50-60 buck price is obviously an unspoken catering to the casual simmer - otherwise they wouldn't have that option.
So buy, fly, and be happy! P3D v4 is a masterpiece - I've been flying for hours and hours on end in the LA basin area the last few weeks, Orbx and all, practically all sliders to the right, no OOMs, no problems. Just blissful happiness and A2A-fun. :-)
Erik Haugan Aasland,

Arendal, Norway
(Homebase: Kristiansand Lufthavn, Kjevik (ENCN)

All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!

tbaac
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 579
Joined: 17 May 2012, 11:24
Location: EGLF

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by tbaac »

I'd think governments and the military would need to buy the Commercial license?

I'd wondered if LM's deal with Microsoft required the standard (Professional) license to be at least $199.
I don't think there's been a price increase since at least v2.

If LM offered upgrades from v2 to v3 to v4 for $100 for example then people might be more likely to buy the Professional version than the Academic version (and so they'd make more money).
So, I wondered if they have to sell it for that price.

I was also imagining earlier if FSW was to fail (not that it will, and it's still early days yet but....) imagine if LM 'merged' with the flight sim part of DTG and so had the entertainment license as well.
They could possibly merge in some parts of the FSW code and would be able to sell Commercial and HomeUse licenses for P3D.
Just a thought, and obviously I hope that FSW continues and becomes the main competitor to xplane in the near future.
ImageImageImage

MSFS, xplane 12.
5600x, 32GB ram, RX 6800XT, Windows 11.

User avatar
dvm
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1873
Joined: 19 Jan 2012, 19:53

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by dvm »

I have been reading the threads on the subject of P3D vs FSX and have become a lot more up to speed on P3D. I have a FSX boxed/DX10 fixer install with all of the west coast/North America Orbx scenery. I have a dedicated FS PC and the performance is quite good without any problems (OOM etc). I did not realize how expensive just P3D software is until reading these threads. When I fly I often think wow! this looks almost real. I remember the earlier MS flight sim software and there is no comparison to what I have now. My flight simming is strictly for entertainment and It seems that many of the folks who have big problems with FSX should consider fixing what they have rather throwing lots of time and money at new software. Of course it depends on your priorities. I am happy to have all around good performance and a realistic look. If you have to have the very best of everything you will still be disappointed and broke I am afraid. For guys like me FSX with good scenery and A2A planes is plenty good enough and I suspect there are many out there that will agree. Perhaps someday FSW will be ready to replace FSX with scenery and aircraft from ORBX and A2A. Until then I will stick with FSX. Just my humble opinion.

User avatar
WB_FlashOver
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 946
Joined: 10 Jun 2012, 18:23
Location: (S05) U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by WB_FlashOver »

Medtner wrote:Regarding the P3D-thing, I've been using the Academic License - no government officials pounding down my door to have me grab ankle.

A couple of weeks ago John Venema of Orbx (who seem to be in the "in" with this stuff) said the following:

"Just purchase the Academic License for (I think) $69 which can legally be used to teach yourself pilotage and cockpit procedures just as you would in a flight school simulator. In fact, over 65% of all Orbx customers now use P3D and there is no legal issue at all with using that product."

Seems to be rather clear that we can easily justify the usage of the Academic License.


Initially I was very disturbed by this license thing, but having thought about it it makes all kinds of sense. For LM to be able to produce this for the gov and military it can't be a "game". It needs to have a professional ring to it. Thus the licensing system. The 50-60 buck price is obviously an unspoken catering to the casual simmer - otherwise they wouldn't have that option.
So buy, fly, and be happy! P3D v4 is a masterpiece - I've been flying for hours and hours on end in the LA basin area the last few weeks, Orbx and all, practically all sliders to the right, no OOMs, no problems. Just blissful happiness and A2A-fun. :-)
I'm with you Medtner,
If you read each EULA under item 1 License Grant, they all end with the same phrase "for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment." This is very specific in that no one can use the software for personal/consumer entertainment. Academic, Professional and Professional Plus ALL have this statement. I am not a lawyer but I read this as legal jargon to cover any and all legally binding circumstances that could arise from the use of the software where LM is CYOA.

ORBX has specific EULA grants that do not permit the user to install to a second computer. However, John Venema, CEO of ORBX stated "The main issue for us is whether you are running Orbx on multiple PCs for personal use or commercial use. We can turn a blind eye to multiple installs for a home setup because you are not deriving income from doing so." in this thread https://orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/128 ... i-channel/
I believe LM's EULA is written in the same manor and that those that have purchased the software (any version) are within the "spirit" of the EULA if using it in the manor that most of us are.

"So buy, fly, and be happy!" as Medtner stated above.

Roger
-- Fly Well, Be Nice, Have Fun ! ! !

Z390 FTW | i9 9900K @ 5.2 | 32GB 3333 CL14 | 3080 Ti FE
970 Pro 512GB (OS)| 970 Evo 1TB | 850 Evo 500GBx2 Raid0
3TB HDD | Define S2 | EKWB Dual Loop


P51civ - T6 - P40 - B17 - B377 - L049 - Comanche - Spit - Bonanza

User avatar
AKar
A2A Master Mechanic
Posts: 5207
Joined: 26 May 2013, 05:03

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by AKar »

Medtner wrote:A couple of weeks ago John Venema of Orbx (who seem to be in the "in" with this stuff) said the following:

"Just purchase the Academic License for (I think) $69 which can legally be used to teach yourself pilotage and cockpit procedures just as you would in a flight school simulator. In fact, over 65% of all Orbx customers now use P3D and there is no legal issue at all with using that product."

Seems to be rather clear that we can easily justify the usage of the Academic License.
That's simply wrong, when compared to the written license. I'm surprised if they officially have such a view. But then again, Orbx appears to be viciously on-business endeavor, and at least their public statements seem to suggest their customer base is primarily P3D.

That there has not been any enforcement of the licensing as of yet does not change what's written in the EULA and in P3D licensing options. Whether the de facto status quo remains at it is will be seen.

My worry is primarily the sustainability of the platform. If they turn blind eye on the misuse of licenses, of course it is their likely well thought-out choice. However if that is simply to gain market share on fraud grounds...hmm.

-Esa

Ian P
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 09:22
Location: Somewhere in the Middle, UK.
Contact:

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by Ian P »

I think people are still a little confused (wilfully or otherwise) about the market P3D is aimed at.

The reason you are complaining about a $200 upgrade every year or two is because you're a consumer. You're thinking like a consumer, about consumer software, where you have to have "the newest and greatest" with all the latest features. Industry, on the other hand, doesn't want a new platform every year or two, it wants stability and support. P3D specifically says that it is not a consumer product. It is not, indeed, intended to be used as a platform on its own at all - it is aimed as a core platform for other companies to license, then create their own products on top of, such as hardware manufacturers to incorporate it in cockpit simulators, educators to incorporate into their teaching syllabus and aircraft manufacturers to use for flight training.

These people specifically DO NOT want a new version every year or two, because it means that they never recoup the costs of development, they're constantly having to develop, constantly having to upgrade support procedures and, most importantly, that there's a continuous ongoing cost for their customers.

When writing industrial software specs, the expected minimum lifespan is normally between five and ten years. For safety critical applications, it can be higher than ten years: Most railway control software, for example, is considerably more than 20 years old and support for it is expected, not optional. It's not the cost of updating the software that's the problem, it's the cost of getting it approved, accepted and in service. That process itself lasts a lot longer than the life cycle of most consumer software.

So, "you" (generic you, not a specific person) may want the features of P3Dv5 in 2018, or 2019, but someone who has built a safety approved training simulator for teaching student pilots procedures using P3Dv1 is still using P3Dv1 - or even ESP. They won't be upgrading to v2, or v3, or v4. They might go to v5 or v6... for their next product platform.

In the industrial world, we'd quite probably still be using FS2002 or FS2004, looking at what would be required to run P3Dv4 as the next step, but thinking that actually, there are still major changes in each service pack for that, so it probably isn't stable enough to use yet. Maybe, when v5 is released, v4 will become a stable platform and will be commercially viable to use in the next product. In that time, the generic "gotta have the shineys" consumer sim user probably bought FS2004, FSX, P3Dv1, P3Dv2, P3Dv3 and P3Dv4.

It's a completely different world and unless you've worked with safety cased and approved software, you really don't understand how different it is than the consumer world. The railway industry around Europe, India, Australia and the US, almost certainly most other places as well, still uses MSDOS 6.2, not even 6.22, because it is the single, only, approved product for altering the code in installed and operational hardware.

Ian P.

User avatar
CAPFlyer
A2A Aviation Consultant
Posts: 2241
Joined: 03 Mar 2008, 12:06
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas, USA

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by CAPFlyer »

AKar wrote:
Medtner wrote:A couple of weeks ago John Venema of Orbx (who seem to be in the "in" with this stuff) said the following:

"Just purchase the Academic License for (I think) $69 which can legally be used to teach yourself pilotage and cockpit procedures just as you would in a flight school simulator. In fact, over 65% of all Orbx customers now use P3D and there is no legal issue at all with using that product."

Seems to be rather clear that we can easily justify the usage of the Academic License.
That's simply wrong, when compared to the written license. I'm surprised if they officially have such a view. But then again, Orbx appears to be viciously on-business endeavor, and at least their public statements seem to suggest their customer base is primarily P3D.

That there has not been any enforcement of the licensing as of yet does not change what's written in the EULA and in P3D licensing options. Whether the de facto status quo remains at it is will be seen.

My worry is primarily the sustainability of the platform. If they turn blind eye on the misuse of licenses, of course it is their likely well thought-out choice. However if that is simply to gain market share on fraud grounds...hmm.

-Esa
As Esa said - just because they aren't enforcing the EULA restrictions NOW doesn't mean they won't in the future. Remember, until DTG bought the FSX license, P3D was the only "Next Generation" flight simulation platform. They're also looking at the sales numbers and seeing that the sales to individual users (i.e. us) were miniscule. While ORBX may claim that 65% of their customer base are P3D users, the fact is, the last reported license sales numbers for P3D were under 100,000 units total.

Comparatively, here's the sales numbers for FSX:SE, FSW, and X-Plane 11 -

FSX:SE - ~844,000 (https://steamdb.info/app/314160/graphs/)
FSW - ~35,500 (https://steamdb.info/app/389280/graphs/)
X-Plane 11 - ~74,000 (https://steamdb.info/app/269950/graphs/)
Image

User avatar
aonyn
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 342
Joined: 03 Mar 2015, 23:49
Location: Morgantown, WV

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by aonyn »

I too am in the camp of eagerly watching what happens with FSW.
Because of the P3D license, I have not gone that direction, even though I know they seem to be turning a blind eye now, all it would take is a complaint from MS or DTG (who acquired the entertainment license) and they may then be forced to enforce the no entertainment purposes policy.

My hope is to see A2A support FSW when they determine the platform is ready for prime time. (Or even X-Plane although I know that is a long shot). Simply put, I hope to see A2A support a future proof platform, that I don't have to misuse a license to enjoy. And yes, in all honesty, I use FS for entertainment and personal enjoyment.

Regards,
Dave
Ron Attwood wrote:David, you'd be useless on Twitter. Too reasonable by half. :D

tbaac
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 579
Joined: 17 May 2012, 11:24
Location: EGLF

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by tbaac »

As each P3D license is separate entity (so you could buy v4 Academic and then v5 Professional for example) it could be argued that it was worth taking the chance and getting the Academic license. Only ongoing commitment I think is to A2A aircraft. Buy the Academic license of half a dozen aircraft and then find you're now on the Professional license of P3D.

Just thinking, and as said earlier, my ESP horse is FSW :P
ImageImageImage

MSFS, xplane 12.
5600x, 32GB ram, RX 6800XT, Windows 11.

Ian P
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 09:22
Location: Somewhere in the Middle, UK.
Contact:

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by Ian P »

XP11 will have vastly outsold its Steam figures via its other channels (primarily its own store, but also via 3rd party vendors and physical media) as well.

It came to Steam well after release and it isn't a usual purchase route for XP users, therefore it is almost certainly an additional source of sales, not a primary one.

Out of interest, another well known industry figure - whose name I am not at liberty to state (he can say it himself if he wants to) informed me that XP11 has vastly boosted sales of X-Plane add-ons. FSX is still by far the biggest player, with FS9 still holding its own, then X-Plane a tiny market, but still outselling P3D add-ons. Remember that those are for third-party add-on sales, though, not core sim licenses.

Ian P.

tbaac
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 579
Joined: 17 May 2012, 11:24
Location: EGLF

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by tbaac »

Yeah, I bought xp11 from the store rather than Steam. Mmmm, Dreamfoil. No A2A or OrbX though. (Scenery can be alright but I am quite fond of the OrbX plausible approach).

FSW's numbers include all the free DFS conversions as well.
ImageImageImage

MSFS, xplane 12.
5600x, 32GB ram, RX 6800XT, Windows 11.

User avatar
aonyn
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 342
Joined: 03 Mar 2015, 23:49
Location: Morgantown, WV

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by aonyn »

I recall hearing OrbX is testing the X-Plane waters.
And yes, I have to say Mmmm to dreamfoil as well. Dreamfoil is fantastic, better than any helicopters I have tried in FSX. (Sorry for the enthusiasm, but I think it is ok since A2A is not selling anything with rotors currently).

Regards,
Dave
Ron Attwood wrote:David, you'd be useless on Twitter. Too reasonable by half. :D

Ian P
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1746
Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 09:22
Location: Somewhere in the Middle, UK.
Contact:

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by Ian P »

Yeah, I don't think FSc sold too well, either, although to be honest, I don't think DTG expected either FSc nor FSW to sell particularly well at this stage.

FSc was very niche (basically just a training vehicle for their new team to learn about the code, as far as I can make out), there are too many people bad-mouthing DTG in the FS community, for whatever reason, and FSW doesn't include by far the biggest component of the flightsim sector - commercial jets. It's also still, right now, using a lot of FSX core content, such as the woefully out of date vector, landclass and navaid data. They've openly stated that these are a low priority right now compared to getting the engine working properly, improving the aircraft and other far more essential components of the sim. It's like realtime weather and evolving weather - why add that, when the sim isn't capable of displaying and simulating what that demands?

For all the crying in certain camps about DTG "only wanting to make a quick buck", they're actually doing the right thing - they're developing from the inside out and developing in stages, not throwing it all together to release at an artificial deadline. I don't think they know how long it will take to finish these things and, although they are IMO rather too secretive about what they are doing and working on, that does seem to be slipping somewhat and they do now say "yes, we're working on that, but we don't know when it will be completed, or exactly what form it will end up taking, yet."

In his last community stream - which also showed another limitation they are fighting against, when Windows 10's latest major update completely broke the FSW multiplayer code - Cryss was saying that they want to expand the SDK away from only being centred around 3DStudioMax, for example, which can only be a good thing. While everyone instantly says "Blender" at that point, there are also other industry standard packages which already exist and can create perfectly viable models for FS already - you just can't compile them without going through 3DSMax or Blender - the latter only thanks to some very talented individuals releasing their work for free to create their own X compilers.

Post too long. Shutting up now! ;)

Cheers,

Ian P.

HighBypass
Airman First Class
Posts: 73
Joined: 27 Dec 2017, 19:34
Location: Lancashire, England

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by HighBypass »

Ian P wrote:...It's not the cost of updating the software that's the problem, it's the cost of getting it approved, accepted and in service. That process itself lasts a lot longer than the life cycle of most consumer software.

...... still uses MSDOS 6.2, not even 6.22, because it is the single, only, approved product for altering the code in installed and operational hardware.

Ian P.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36385839

This is why the nuke computers still use 8 inch floppy disks. Besides no worries about Intel issues either! :) .

So... I wonder if the big, red, shiny button on President Trump's desk has a USB to Serial adapter?? :lol:
Image

Dogsbody55
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1835
Joined: 26 Aug 2013, 22:03
Location: Perth, W. Aust

Re: A2A and Flightsim World

Post by Dogsbody55 »

What we must all remember about FSW is that it's still in development, and I don't believe it will go gold for a while yet. To be a commercial success, it will need to cater for jets and helicopters which DTG are aware of. I'm pleasantly surprised that it has sold as well as it has and I believe it will eventually become the successor to FSX. That companies are not yet releasing product for FSW is also hardly surprising as it is still in development, and you can't develop product which has a long lead time such as A2A planes until you're sure of the final product.

So to those who dismiss it because it doesn't have what you want, just be patient as I'm sure it will get there. I completely agree with Ian P's post that DTG are developing the sim in the right way and we will finish up with a well developed and properly functioning sim, which will be great. Only at that point can users viably compare it with other sims.

As to P3D, I don 't believe that will become the number one sim as it's not advertised anywhere, and they're hampered with that EULA, which specifies that it's not for entertainment purposes which is what 90% of users do with it. If the legal eagles at Microcrap ever decided to do something about it, and there's a buck in it for them, most P3D users would be looking for a new sim. The fact that it's probably not a commercial success in terms of sales numbers is a good thing for P3D users because if it was, given the way Microcrap licensed the development of Flightsim, there would be one almighty legal scrap which would only be to the detriment of us customers and the 3rd party development world too.



Cheers,
Mike
ImageImageImageImage

new reply

Return to “Pilot's Lounge”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests