Accusim this!!

[Alan_A]

But, not long ago, I had a chance to push the right pedal down on a pretty reasonable, rather boring electric car. Now, Jesus help me with that amount of torque!!
-Esa

The performance gain, as I understand it, is because there's vastly less mechanical friction involved in delivering power to the drivetrain, so acceleration is essentially "instant on."

While I understand the resistance to change (and agree that electric propulsion isn't entirely clean, just cleaner, which is not a negligible consideration), I think it's worth noting that American automobile writers like Dan Neil of The Wall Street Journal, who are hardcore performance car enthusiasts, are extremely positive about electric propulsion, for reasons that have to do with the fact that the good ones are apparently a lot of fun to drive.

Neil has also been pointing out the economic factors - thanks to China's electric mandate, manufacturers can plan for certain demand, and at scales of production that immediately make electric propulsion as efficient on a cost-per-kilowatt basis as internal combustion. So there's no question that this is the way the automotive market will go, and soon. If you want to know more, check out his September 22, 2017 column about the Frankfurt Auto Show - it's behind a paywall, so I won't link it here, but if you're a subscriber, have a look.

I'm anticipating that my next car - probably about the middle of the next decade - will be electric, and I'm looking forward to it.

As for sound - no reason it can't be digitized and piped in.

[Mickel]

I don't think the argument that 'the energy has to be generated by burning hydrocarbons' stands up. To power an internal combustion engine requires refined oil (bio-fuels withstanding). To power an electric car, the generation options are:
Wind power (renewable)
Wave power (renewable)
Solar power (renewable, and can be done at home to an extent in some places)
Hydro power (renewable)
Natural gas
Nuclear (particularly if fusion technology can be made to work)
Oil (heavy, as opposed to refined)
Coal (if you really must... I'm in Oz where an argument against buying F-35s is they won't run on coal... )
Sure, all of these things have their own environmental costs, the latter two in particular. Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs... Yep, not all can be done in all parts of the world either. But there isn't oil everywhere either.

It also reduces the influence of the oil cartels. Not a bad thing...

The other thing is that the burning of the refined oil is where the power is needed, in a small, mobile power plant. So there are no uses, beyond the heater, for the waste heat and no methods of recovering it to make use of it. And the pollution is dumped en masse right where people are. No wonder governments like the idea.

Electric cars have some way to go to be completely viable, and may not completely replace the internal combustion engine. Electric planes, even further. The march will continue that way though.

[Alan_A]

Electric cars have some way to go to be completely viable, and may not completely replace the internal combustion engine. Electric planes, even further. The march will continue that way though.

You could argue that viable electric cars are here now (and not just the out-of-reach Tesla Model S - the Chevy Bolt gets raves). What's needed is the infrastructure. It's just beginning to come online in the US Northeast, and has a long way to go. Case in point - I'm an apartment-dweller, so I'm dependent on the management company and the garage operator to install charging stations, something they're in no hurry to do. I don't think the tipping point will be far off, though.

[Mickel]

Yeah, I guess that's what I was getting at. Spurred on by this thread, I've done a (little) bit of reading, and the EV Golfs and similar. I'd get three days out of a charge. I could live with that if charging at home was viable (which it probably is with further research). Only down side is the 596mi each way trip to Xmas... But that's just reality of life in 'straya. Canada and the US would be much the same.

That range will increase, just as the range of aircraft has. I think you're right about the tipping point. There is skepticism here, but then they don't run on coal (directly), so...

[Dogsbody55]

I don't think the argument that 'the energy has to be generated by burning hydrocarbons' stands up. To power an internal combustion engine requires refined oil (bio-fuels withstanding). To power an electric car, the generation options are:
Wind power (renewable)
Wave power (renewable)
Solar power (renewable, and can be done at home to an extent in some places)
Hydro power (renewable)
Natural gas
Nuclear (particularly if fusion technology can be made to work)
Oil (heavy, as opposed to refined)
Coal (if you really must... I'm in Oz where an argument against buying F-35s is they won't run on coal... )
Sure, all of these things have their own environmental costs, the latter two in particular. Can't make an omelette without breaking eggs... Yep, not all can be done in all parts of the world either. But there isn't oil everywhere either.

It also reduces the influence of the oil cartels. Not a bad thing...

The other thing is that the burning of the refined oil is where the power is needed, in a small, mobile power plant. So there are no uses, beyond the heater, for the waste heat and no methods of recovering it to make use of it. And the pollution is dumped en masse right where people are. No wonder governments like the idea.

Electric cars have some way to go to be completely viable, and may not completely replace the internal combustion engine. Electric planes, even further. The march will continue that way though.

The reality in Australia today is that if we all converted to electric cars, we would produce more greenhouse gasses than we do now with our present mix of petrol, hybrid and diesel vehicles. This is because our governments of all levels and ideology have allowed the privatisation of our power grid, and private enterprise is concerned with profits, shareholders then customers, in that level of priority. You don't make money by spending it on fancy new technologies when the old stuff is still generating profits just so you can be nice to the environment. Not that government owned utilities are much better either, as their political masters use utility charges as a political football, to the detriment of the state of the power grid, which is why they had to privatise them in the first place as they couldn't afford the cost of bringing them up to par. End result is that we still have a very high dependency on coal and other high polluting forms of energy generation. We would also run into huge problems with our presently inadequate power grid too and the immense problems that would bring unless something is done to build a power grid that supports everyone's future needs in a reliable fashion. Can you imagine the political wrangling that will bring, especially given the issues with our wonderful National Broadband Network?? I wonder how many other countries are in the same situation?

The other big issue with electric transportation is the environmental damage done by the production and disposal of batteries. Unless something is done about both of these issues, we'll simply be swapping one type of pollution for another. Batteries are filthy things in the mining of their constituents, their manufacture, and also in their disposal.

However, there's little doubt at the present time that electric power is likely to become the dominant form of daily transport, with the exception of the aircraft. Who has yet proposed a practical electric ariliner or military plane?? Possibly GA planes could be electrified, but as with cars, range is a big issue. It's just going to take much more time than the media and our glorious leaders would have us believe.

As to electric cars having more torque and being so much faster than internal combustion engines, in the end I don't care. OK, my V8 might get beaten at the traffic lights by a Toyota Hairdryer, but I have a greater sense of emotion and involvement in driving my car due to it's fury, sound and vibration. And I will have driven 500 miles in less time than the aforementioned Hairdryer. So it is also with aircraft.


Cheers,
Mike

[Mickel]

Yeah, Australia and infrastructure. Less said the better... We're not allowed to discussed politics here in any case. (and they're all as bad as each other) From a satirist, the likes of which I'll never see again:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/cla ... ed/8359762

Nickel mining is ugly. But it tends to be done in countries no one cares about, so it's all good. No doubt battery recycling can be done, but there isn't the will to make it happen. The wife took some household batteries off to the shop to go to recycling. Can't do it any more as the part that was taken out of the process that was environmentally really bad is no longer used, so the batteries can now just go to landfill. Hmmm, ok...

Electric military UAVs are a no-brainer. Passenger aircraft would be a looooong way off. Would be a boon for basic training. Don't know about Jandakot, but Parafield here has been steadily built around and the locals aren't happy about the noise from students in the circuit much of the day and into the night. Electric planes would cut that drastically. Would still need avgas range for the navex's though.

I have no real emotional attachment to driving as such. It's gets me to work and the shops. On the other hand.. I miss the V10/V12 F1 scream, so I'm not completely devoid of a soul.

[Alan_A]

Interestingly, private utilities in the US are moving heavily toward renewables - much more profitable than coal, which is a dying industry here.

Battery disposal is a serious problem that needs serious work to solve.

Re: aircraft - fully electrical examples may be a long way off, but there's a lot of effort being put into hybrid powerplants, especially for regional airliners. Aviation Week is devoting a fair amount of space to them.

I think the idea that electric cars are appliance-like and uninvolving is a little out of date - probably a result of encounters with hybrids like the Prius (which, the one time I had one as a loaner, I found it'd hustle nicely along on the highway, once you got it up to speed. Getting it up to speed was a painful experience). Reports about the latest crop of all-electrics like the Bolt, the Tesla models and the BMW electrics suggest they can really be a blast to drive.

[AKar]

But, not long ago, I had a chance to push the right pedal down on a pretty reasonable, rather boring electric car. Now, Jesus help me with that amount of torque!!
-Esa

The performance gain, as I understand it, is because there's vastly less mechanical friction involved in delivering power to the drivetrain, so acceleration is essentially "instant on."

Electrical propulsion has an advantage in that it can produce just about maximum torque from standstill, obviously depending on the drive power electronics. There are a couple of ways to make up an electric car.

In general, I don't see the internal combustion engine going away any time soon. In many places, the driven distances are rather long, and battery tech is simply not there yet. Another huge problem will be the implications on the existing electrical infrastructure. But I am a believer in more-electric way of world. A properly designed hybrid kind of combines the efficiency and the performance of an electric car in a city traffic to the range of the good old internal combustion engine.

In an airplane, a self-launching glider makes an excellent platform for an electric propulsion. Perhaps a basic trainer, that spends most of its time flying around the traffic pattern or in the immediate vicinity of the airfield could be the next step. I don't believe we'll see commercial air transport seeing much of revolution in terms of electrical propulsion.

-Esa

[Alan_A]

In many places, the driven distances are rather long, and battery tech is simply not there yet.

Range is a barrier. In the US it's a little different - at least in dense urban areas - where most drives are very short. Think in terms of work commutes of 30-60 miles a day. Most of my driving is local and urban, which is a big part of what puts me in mind of a move to electric.

I'd expect batteries to get smaller, lighter and more efficient in a hurry, especially (again) given the China mandate. Lots of funding suddenly available to attack the problem.

Here's one of the hybrid airliners that's in the works. And here's another. The timelines are almost certainly optimistic. But the work is being done.

[Dogsbody55]

In many places, the driven distances are rather long, and battery tech is simply not there yet.

Range is a barrier. In the US it's a little different - at least in dense urban areas - where most drives are very short. Think in terms of work commutes of 30-60 miles a day. Most of my driving is local and urban, which is a big part of what puts me in mind of a move to electric.

I'd expect batteries to get smaller, lighter and more efficient in a hurry, especially (again) given the China mandate. Lots of funding suddenly available to attack the problem.

Here's one of the hybrid airliners that's in the works. And here's another. The timelines are almost certainly optimistic. But the work is being done.

Interesting links, and thanks for posting them. Clearly someone is thinking ahead because unless fuels are synthesized on a commercial scale, the future of aviation is in doubt. I'm sure that hybrid technology may well lead to a fully electric plane, but it won't happen in my lifetime.


Cheers,
Mike