Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

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DHenriques_
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by DHenriques_ »

shortspecialbus wrote:
ilya1502 wrote:
AKar wrote:these dual magneto thingies on them
What exactly you mean?
I'm guessing he means this:

http://www.askbob.aero/content/lycoming ... b-ne-08-26

Not 100% sure though. I've heard negative things about dual magnetos vs 2 single magnetos, when my friend's airplane club was shopping for a new plane and it came up, but I don't actually have an airplane, so I don't have a lot of personal experience with it.

-stefan
I've been in professional aviation all my life and I've yet to hear a single viable case made for an aircraft engine with a single magneto.
Dudley Henriques

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ilya1502
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by ilya1502 »

Please, excuse my lack of education, gentlemen, but what is exactly a dual magneto? As opposed to a single.

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DHenriques_
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by DHenriques_ »

ilya1502 wrote:Please, excuse my lack of education, gentlemen, but what is exactly a dual magneto? As opposed to a single.
No problem at all. Glad to help, and please don't ever feel bad for asking a question here. We're all here to help.
Aircraft engines use two magnetos each supplying separate ignition to the engine, each a complete system unto themselves.
The theory is safety. If one fails the other will get you back on the ground.
It's the old "never put all your eggs in one basket" theory. Redundancy means safety in an airplane.
Dudley Henriques

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ilya1502
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by ilya1502 »

Thanks, Dudley, this is not what I really meant. A couple of messages ago Stefan (shortspecialbus) wrote, "I've heard negative things about dual magnetos vs 2 single magnetos". That thing, that there are 2 magnetos per engine, I actually know. But Stefan's message implies that there are 2 designs of the magneto: a single magneto and a dual magneto. What a dual magneto is? Is it something like two magnetos in a single case?

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DHenriques_
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by DHenriques_ »

ilya1502 wrote:Thanks, Dudley, this is not what I really meant. A couple of messages ago Stefan (shortspecialbus) wrote, "I've heard negative things about dual magnetos vs 2 single magnetos". That thing, that there are 2 magnetos per engine, I actually know. But Stefan's message implies that there are 2 designs of the magneto: a single magneto and a dual magneto. What a dual magneto is? Is it something like two magnetos in a single case?
Oh.....I'm with you now. LOL I misunderstood.

Yes, dual mags are contained in a single unit case and run off a single magnet source as separate magneto systems. Saves space and electrical harness wiring. Many A&P's have said they reduce annual costs.
I seem to remember Bendix and Slick made dual units.
To be perfectly honest I don't remember anyone ever complaining about them. I do remember we had a Bonanza on our line with a Continental in it that had dual mags. I think Continental canned them later on.
All in all, I wouldn't fault them as an optional installation as you still retain the basic concept of redundancy.
Dudley Henriques

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ilya1502
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by ilya1502 »

Okay, thank you, Dudley.

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AKar
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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by AKar »

ilya1502 wrote:
AKar wrote:these dual magneto thingies on them
What exactly you mean?
As already clarified by others, dual magneto is a single unit having two distributors and ignition circuits, but turned by a single drive. It saves small amounts of space on the accessories. Nothing much, really. Google 'Bendix D-3000' to see some pics. One sometimes hears some bad things about them, I don't know how justified. I have no opinion of my own in that sense.

However, they were primarily manufactured by Bendix, which was purchased by Continental. Now, Lycoming was the only engine manufacturer that used them in any wider sense. Obviously, the main rival had no problems in pulling the plug off the production line, which they did at around 2000 if I recall. Therefore, only overhauled units are in circulation, and I don't know how is the availability of the service parts nowadays. Regardless, it was more difficult to find service support for duals than for regular single magnetos, as is usually the case with 'exotics'. But again, I'm not sure of the current state of matters.

They obviously give up some of the redundancy, but then again, Bendix magnetos tend to be somewhat more properly built than the Slick ones, using a bit less of that brittle plastic. Obviously, with dual mag, if you had an issue in either side, the whole enchilada comes off. Good thing or bad, one could argue both ways.
pilottj wrote:The RV thread below got me a little dreamy about owning an RV-7 and how I would option it. Would I go with the 200hp IO-360 or the basic 180hp unit. Cost vs reliability vs performance..etc. As you say, and from personal experience, the basic Lyc O-360 is about as bulletproof as they come. I remember my training days flying a flightschool's fleet of O-360 powered 172s what with all the student abuse they put up with and kept on ticking.

Keeping the engine happy is my biggest concern when flying. I don't mind flying a few knots slower if it means the engine is 'happy'. Anyway, good stuff to think about.
Piper Arrow had 180 hp engine on it until it was changed to the 200 hp model. I don't recall any specific issues with either. Perhaps 'Arrow community' has formed some opinion of them. Or the Vans community. I'd expect the 180 hp Arrow guys at least making up some appropriate justifications for having this lower hp model, aside lacking money for the -200. :mrgreen: I doubt having that extra 20 hp would be a bad thing at all. Neither engine has any reputation of being troublesome, so they should run pretty happy with regular, proper operation. The engines that are more unreliable than others, have specific issues or require special care in operation are usually rather well identified.

-Esa

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Re: Cessna C177 Cardinal - what went wrong?

Post by shortspecialbus »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
shortspecialbus wrote:
ilya1502 wrote: What exactly you mean?
I'm guessing he means this:

http://www.askbob.aero/content/lycoming ... b-ne-08-26

Not 100% sure though. I've heard negative things about dual magnetos vs 2 single magnetos, when my friend's airplane club was shopping for a new plane and it came up, but I don't actually have an airplane, so I don't have a lot of personal experience with it.

-stefan
I've been in professional aviation all my life and I've yet to hear a single viable case made for an aircraft engine with a single magneto.
Dudley Henriques
Yeah, I want to reiterate I have no negative personal experience with this myself. Thanks for doing a better explanation than my quick one here as well!

-stefan

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