Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

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DHenriques_
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by DHenriques_ »

Alan_A wrote:Thanks to all for the many good points and clarifications in this thread - but of course, I'd expect nothing less from an A2A discussion... 8)

A few points of my own...

About political correctness - I understand what Scott, Dudley and others have said about the distinction between discussing political correctness and discussing politics. I still think there's sort of a glitch here - not intentional, more a bug in the programming. Here's why. A lot of the time, when people talk about political correctness, it's to complain about it. "There's too much political correctness." "We should be able to say X or Y or Z." "People need to be less sensitive and have more of a sense of humor." Now, there's merit in all of that - anything can be carried to extremes. And in this particular thread, the objection (Scott's) is a bit different - he's suggesting that Nazis be called Nazis, which is hard to disagree with. What concerns me, though is that in the more normal "get over it" conversation, the rules create a sort of double bind. Anti-political correctness person gets to say, "get over it." But if the person being addressed wants to disagree, he or she is going to have explain why getting over it isn't an option. And that explanation is likely to involve politics or race or gender or something like that - which as of now are on the wrong side of the forum guidelines. So in effect, anti-political correctness person has a sort of sanctioned first-strike capability, while offended person is formally limited in what he or she can say. Seems like an unfair balance, is all. Maybe a tweak to the rules is called for?

Now, back to Dunkirk... I have to say, speaking personally, as a Jewish person and as someone who's spent a lot of time with WWII history, I don't think the film treated the Germans lightly at all. Part of the reason for the disagreement on this is that - as Nolan says in the Time interview I linked to above - the film really is experimental, and a big part of the experiment is his deciding not to have any kind of conventional narrative or backstory. What he wanted was a visceral, present-tense, you-are-there experience. As a result there wasn't really a good opportunity for anybody to say, "Those damn Nazis!" or anything along those lines. Instead, the storytelling was almost purely visual. And on that score, I think the Germans were registered as pretty horrific. There was the bombing attack on the clearly-marked hospital ship. There were bombing runs against ships offshore jammed with refugees. And there were the Stukas. Maybe it's given my background, but I always have a visceral, aversive reaction to Stukas. William Gibson, in his novel Pattern Recognition, noted (in an observation about design and culture) that the Stuka could only ever have been a Nazi airplane. So there's another visual. Putting all those images together, I had no trouble figuring out who the enemy was or how to react to them.

The nature of Nolan's experiment is such that not everybody is going to get the point. And people are going to object to the experiment itself - there's no reason you have to think that it's a good idea to tell the story that way. So I have no problem with any disagreements.

Re: other points - I agree completely that the relationship among the Nazis, the Wehrmacht and the German people is complicated and not at all clear-cut - though not as simple as "only the SS were Nazis" either.

Sorry to have gone on at length about this - I mostly try to avoid this kind of conversation these days, and actually haven't been around flightsim sites much at all the past few months. But I did want to register a couple of points. It may be that my reactions are a bit exaggerated - on another site at the moment I'm trying to deal with the presence of an actual and seemingly unrepentant alt-right person, so maybe things spill over. Thanks again and best to all.
Your points are valid and well put down.
DH

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Tomas Linnet »

I'm still going to see this :D
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Medtner
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Medtner »

Alan_A wrote:
Now, back to Dunkirk... I have to say, speaking personally, as a Jewish person and as someone who's spent a lot of time with WWII history, I don't think the film treated the Germans lightly at all. Part of the reason for the disagreement on this is that - as Nolan says in the Time interview I linked to above - the film really is experimental, and a big part of the experiment is his deciding not to have any kind of conventional narrative or backstory. What he wanted was a visceral, present-tense, you-are-there experience. As a result there wasn't really a good opportunity for anybody to say, "Those damn Nazis!" or anything along those lines. Instead, the storytelling was almost purely visual. And on that score, I think the Germans were registered as pretty horrific. There was the bombing attack on the clearly-marked hospital ship. There were bombing runs against ships offshore jammed with refugees. And there were the Stukas. Maybe it's given my background, but I always have a visceral, aversive reaction to Stukas. William Gibson, in his novel Pattern Recognition, noted (in an observation about design and culture) that the Stuka could only ever have been a Nazi airplane. So there's another visual. Putting all those images together, I had no trouble figuring out who the enemy was or how to react to them.

The nature of Nolan's experiment is such that not everybody is going to get the point. And people are going to object to the experiment itself - there's no reason you have to think that it's a good idea to tell the story that way. So I have no problem with any disagreements.
This!

Here we have it, it was intentional from Nolan to make the movie this way, just as I thought. We are then to accept that the film was always about the experience, the horror, and the soldiers limited understanding of the scope of the thing. It was not about a political statement, or a history lesson per se.

You can of course have a preference for films that are pointing out who the enemy is and what their point of view was and so forth, but this movie isn't about that. Don't like it? Well, this movie isn't made for you. Furthermore it isn't failed or bad - it is exactly what it was meant to be.

If you were constantly annoyed with the lack of a history lesson, and thus didn't 'feel' the film, I suggest you view it again and let it grab you like it was meant to.
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Alan_A »

Scott - A2A wrote:
As for the rules to be changed, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. I want us to all be able to speak 100% about WWII history here. There is a fine line, and I think we all know it, but if there is a tweak to the rules you think would be better, let me know. Also, I may have missed something but I don't think anyone here is thinking Jewish people should "get over it." If anything, they need to never get over it and forever remember it. Forgive perhaps, but don't forget.

Scott.
No, no, no - wasn't suggesting that the "get over it" had anything to do with Jewishness. It was a generic example of the way political correctness discussions can sometimes go. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Side note - I was in effect told to "get over it" as a Jewish person on the other side, concerning the alt-right member. So that does happen. But not here.

About rules - I'm going to have to give that some more thought (I know, weak response after I brought it up, but there we are). The problem with rulemaking is that if you get too detailed and too specific, at some point you've got a long enumerated list with lots of loopholes and the whole thing falls apart. Example: I live in an apartment building run by a company with too many lawyers who have too little to do. Every couple of years, they revise and expand the pet policy. It goes on for pages, with lists of animals you're not allowed to have. The other day I was looking at the latest version and realized that in all those pages, it doesn't say anything at all about porcupines. This has me thinking about my options. You don't want the same thing to happen here or have to police hundreds of kinds of subject matter. Maybe it's more a matter of reinforcing the prime directive (members should always feel comfortable) and giving a little slack (not too much) to see how things play out in practice. The ban on politics should stay, of course - a shame, since those discussions can be interesting, but the times don't really allow for that right now.

For what it's worth (a lot), there hasn't been anything at all in this thread - which has veered into some gnarly territory - that seems to be at all uncomfortable.
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Alan_A
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Alan_A »

Medtner wrote:
Here we have it, it was intentional from Nolan to make the movie this way, just as I thought. We are then to accept that the film was always about the experience, the horror, and the soldiers limited understanding of the scope of the thing.
It's still possible, though, to criticize the execution even if you like the approach. Nolan has often been criticized in the past for doing really confusing action sequences - in the fight scenes in his Batman movies, it's almost completely impossible for minutes at a time to know what's going on. So it could be argued that in Dunkirk, other visuals and scenes could have made it better. I thought he did it pretty brilliantly, but counterarguments can be made just on the grounds of technique.

To some of the points above - it might have been possible to show some of the German atrocities, like the execution of prisoners by 1st SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (there were two incidents). The argument against is that this would have broadened the scope of the film far beyond the very narrow focus on three individuals. Some people have said that the role of the French was given short shrift (I disagree - I thought the scene of the French infantrymen in their sandbag barricade, who obviously are never going to make it to the beach, made the point very economically). And (apologies, I'm veering back toward political correctness conversation), some critics have pointed out that Nolan could have shown, even if just in passing, some of the commonwealth troops, especially those of color, who were also at Dunkirk. But again, there's that issue of scope. He had very definite ideas about how and what he wanted to execute, for good or ill.

Speaking of the severely restricted viewpoint - did you notice that the only way he included Churchill was to have a soldier read the House of Commons speech in the newspaper? Really a relentlessly narrow focus.

Sort of off topic, but since we're talking about visual storytelling (and since you mentioned other quality stuff, like The Wire) - far and away the best visual sequence I've seen in years was the dragon battle sequence in last Sunday's episode of Game of Thrones. It's an amazingly complicated and very long (15 minute) scene, and I'm in awe of the director's ability to maintain absolute clarity throughout, shift viewpoints, relate characters to each other and all the while make it clear that what the story is about is the introduction of a new, horrific category of weapon, and what it feels like to be on the other side of that. It's bigger and more effective than anything I've come across in a theater-release film. What's even more amazing is that the director (Matt Shakman) has no background at all in action - his whole resume is in situation comedies. I have no idea how he pulled it together, and I've been studying it trying to break down the technique. Even if you don't follow Game of Thrones, it's worth a look on its own terms. Better, actually, than anything in Dunkirk - which, again, I thought was quite good.
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by bladerunner900 »

I still haven't seen the film yet, but I have spoken to someone who has and was there, on the beach at Dunkirk getting evacuated. All he would say is that the film must have done something right, because it, in his words, 'brought all the awful memories flooding back'. There was no doubt in his mind who they were. They were Germans and they were trying to kill him. All he was concerned with was in 'getting away from the horror'. A phrase that some may find familiar and slightly amusing these days. But I can assure you, there was no humour in neither his manner nor his tone when he was talking about it.

If anything, this has made me more determined to see the film and try to put aside any preconceptions I might have. To try and see it from his perspective.

Steve.

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Alan_A »

bladerunner900 wrote:All he was concerned with was in 'getting away from the horror'. A phrase that some may find familiar and slightly amusing these days. But I can assure you, there was no humour in neither his manner nor his tone when he was talking about it.
To that point - Nolan said (in the Time interview):
This tale is about the idea of home. It’s about the desperate frustration of not being able to get to where you need to be.
So, from the standpoint of the survivor you spoke to, at least, it seems as though Nolan achieved what he set out to.
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by clarkejw »

I haven't seen the film yet, but I will, and, of course, form my own opinions. The purpose of this post is to congratulate all who have contributed to this debate for their politeness and respect for other opinions. I have seen this topic debated on other sites, and it has descended into quite bitter and vitriolic comments being hurled around.

I guess this is one of the reasons I like the A2A forum so much. The respect. We'll never all agree, but to discuss a topic fairly and rationally with mutual respect is terrific to see. Congratulations to all of you.

John

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by DHenriques_ »

clarkejw wrote:I haven't seen the film yet, but I will, and, of course, form my own opinions. The purpose of this post is to congratulate all who have contributed to this debate for their politeness and respect for other opinions. I have seen this topic debated on other sites, and it has descended into quite bitter and vitriolic comments being hurled around.

I guess this is one of the reasons I like the A2A forum so much. The respect. We'll never all agree, but to discuss a topic fairly and rationally with mutual respect is terrific to see. Congratulations to all of you.

John
This is because we have nothing but the finest people here in our A2A community. If we find people who are not nice we arrange for them to audition for 'The Walking Dead" where they are quickly dispatched as walkers in Season one/Episode one

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by JJB17463rdBombGroup »

He is a video about a 97 year old Calgary veteran whom survived Dunkirk that likes this movie.

Note I will just provide the link rather than embed it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwaJcZnR7us
Son of a U.S.A.A.F. 15th Air Force 463rd bomb group 772nd squadron B17 pilot.
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by bladerunner900 »

Alan_A wrote:So, from the standpoint of the survivor you spoke to, at least, it seems as though Nolan achieved what he set out to.
Yes, he is a lovely chap and was a friend of my late father. They got to know each other during their time in the Royal Marines. He (my father) was too young for Dunkirk, but was certainly there for Normandy. But that's another story.
Last edited by bladerunner900 on 14 Aug 2017, 07:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Mithras »

Nolan said: "Dunkirk is not really a battle—it’s an evacuation, a retreat. It’s a fight for survival, and it immediately drew me to the language of suspense..."

That opening shot with mention of the Enemy, caught my eye, and I realised immediately this was going to be a faceless survival film. You never see a German face, it is total war with a faceless enemy. I like that. Nolan describes it as an experience, and I said as much to my friend when we came out of the cinnema, "I feel like I was there!" and that was Nolan's intention (he said).

So, I liked it, a lot! The 1950s movie Dunkirk is also brilliant, but gives a much broader view and explains what is going on in context.

But Nolan was going for visceral experience, and I applaud it 100%.

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Mithras »

I find I flinch when I see 'Nazi' used in lieu of 'German', which I do consider to be a face-saving technique on behalf of modern peace-loving Germany. I was in a primary classroom a few years ago, when there was a lesson on World War Two, and the teacher corrected a child who mentioned the Germans, she told him that the British were fighting the Nazis, not the Germans, which made me squirm a bit. She didnt want the children to think Germans were bad, so changed the terminology. We all know of course there were loads of Germans who couldn't have cared less about the Nazi Party. The movie Das Boot, for example is about Germans, I think there is only one Nazi in that film (the political officer).

Using Nazi all the time seems to be a 'rebranding' if I can use such a flippant word. I understand why, just as I understand that teacher's motivations were good ones, but it is a technique that lacks clarity and can overly simplify a tough and complicated historical situation. After all, we were at war with Germany - not the National Socialist Party.

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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Killratio »

Just typical of the radical re-write of history going on all over.....it is the same rubbish that saw the 200th anniversary re-enactment of the Battle of Trafalgar use "The Red Team" and "The Blue Team" so as not to offend the French.

Call a spade a spade for pities sake. (and before the mad men and women descend on me, it's a very old saying with ZERO racial connotation ;) )
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Re: Dunkirk Movie – not recommended

Post by Molly - A2A »

"Radical re-write of history going on all over" is probably a bit overstated IMO.

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