Hey guys,
There are some beautiful beta pics posted on the Avsim showing the upcoming PMDG DC-6. She is certainly looking to be a fantastic stablemate for the Connie. The poster was lauding the visceral experience of flying a very 'manual' beast like 'six'. The same kind of experience we A2A flyers get when we fly a T-6, P-40, or Connie or whatever. I agree with them, that mastering an old beast like a T-6 is a very rewarding and satisfying experience.
Anyway, it got me to thinking. I know much of the twin training world, including my Alma Mater, has switched to the DA-42. Now I think Diamond Aircraft is an excellent and very innovative aircraft manufacturer with a excellent lineup of airplanes. The DA-42 to is a fantastic airplane with cutting edge safety features, and no surprise, it has an excellent safety record. I would certainly buy the newest -VI version with all the wiz bang saftety and automatic bells n whistles in a heartbeat, especially if I want to haul loved ones around in IMC. In some ways the DA-42 is like the P-51, in that it's automation allows for more of hands on stick n throttle time, which is great.
However as a trainer, I thank my lucky stars that I did my multi, along with IFR and CPL multi portions, in the Duchess and Seminole. Having to deal with six levers on that quadrant, I think you develop a more heightened awareness of spotting potential issues before they become a problem. Since the procedures for dealing with emergencies in a 'manual' twin are much more 'involved' from the pilot standpoint, you really want to catch an issue well before it becomes an emergency.
You were drilled by your instructor on correctly identifying a dead engine, and executing the appropriate steps, so that when he shouted 'Engine failure' and pulled a throttle while you weren't looking, you immediately know what to do. In this highly computerized world we live in, I hope that of refined natural 'instinct' developed from learning how to do things manually doesn't completely go away in the aviation world.
This isn't a knock on pilots who have learned to fly in automated planes because there are many great pilots currently training, including many members here. Heck we are all in 'training'...even high time pilots like Dudley. If you didn't learn something or find something to improve every time you fly, then something is wrong. Highly automated planes can give you a false sense of competence, where as a manual plane will highlight things you need to improve..often very embarrassingly I might add lol.
I really hope A2A approaches the twin experience with the same visceral type of flight training like they have with all their planes, but especially with the 'vintage' planes.
It's kind of like teaching a kid to drive. Start out in a Prius, let them figure out the steering wheel, accelerator, and brake...but if they want to be good drivers with solid driving instinct, put them in an old stick....like an old stick shift jeep. Oh the embarrassment your kids must feel when stalling out while learning clutch with a line of traffic behind...it sucks, we were all there at one point or another eh? ...but we are good drivers for it. I remember when i was young, the first time I had to drive a stick a significant distance alone, I did NOT want to get stuck at a red light, I wanted to keep MOVING....and I made it almost all the way...then got stopped at a red light, first in line of course...I don't remember it totally, but I vaguely remember peeling out, hitting the clutch and gas...'aggressively'. It's funny cause all that stuff is fluid instinct now after all these years, even after periods of not driving a stick. Slightly off topic, you know a great thing about a stickshift? A lot fewer people can drive a stick, so the chances of your car getting stolen are a bit lower
This isn't a rant against automation. Automation through technological innovation has always had an excellent and much needed role, especially when the flying or driving tasks involve carrying precious cargo...ie loved ones. Automation is excellent in 'working' airplanes...it frees up the pilot to focus on carrying out the airplane's designed mission...ie hauling, combat or whatever.
Anyway, sorry for the long winded post.
I am curious what the CFIs and everyone think about automation and training thing.
Cheers
TJ
Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
Last edited by pilottj on 24 Mar 2017, 20:53, edited 2 times in total.
- DHenriques_
- A2A Chief Pilot
- Posts: 5711
- Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
- Location: East Coast United States
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
I am a retired CFI and currently a consultant to the airshow and aerobatic industry on a world wide basis. I deal with the automation issue every day.pilottj wrote:Hey guys,
There was some beautiful beta pics posted on the Avsim showing the upcoming PMDG DC-6. The poster was lauding the visceral experience of flying a very 'manual' beast like 'six'. The same kind of experience we A2A flyers get when we fly a T-6, P-40, or Connie or whatever. I agree with them, that mastering an old beast like a T-6 is a very rewarding experience.
Anyway, it got me to thinking. I know much of the twin training world, including my Alma Mater, has switched to the DA-42. Now I think Diamond Aircraft is an excellent and very innovative aircraft manufacturer. The DA-42 to is a fantastic airplane with cutting edge safety features, and no surprise, it has an excellent safety record. I would certainly buy the newest -VI version with all the wiz bang saftety and automatic bells n whistles in a heartbeat, especially if I want to haul loved ones around in IMC. In some ways the DA-42 is like the P-51, in that it's automation allows for more of hands on stick n throttle time, which is great.
However as a trainer, I thank my lucky stars that I did my multi, along with IFR and CPL multi portions, in the Duchess and Seminole. Having to deal with six levers on that quadrant, I think you develop a more heightened awareness of spotting potential issues before they become a problem. Since the procedures for dealing with emergencies in a 'manual' twin are much more 'involved' from the pilot standpoint, you really want to catch an issue well before it becomes an emergency.
You were drilled by your instructor on correctly identifying a dead engine, and executing the appropriate steps, so that when he shouted 'Engine failure' and pulled a throttle while you weren't looking, you immediately know what to do. In this highly computerized world we live in, I hope that of refined natural 'instinct' developed from learning how to do things manually doesn't completely go away in the aviation world.
This isn't a knock on pilots who have learned to fly in automated planes because there are many great pilots currently training, including many members here. Heck we are all in 'training'...even high time pilots like Dudley. If you didn't learn something or find something to improve every time you fly, then something is wrong. Highly automated planes can give you a false sense of competence, where as a manual plane will highlight things you need to improve..often very embarrassingly I might add lol.
I really hope A2A approaches the twin experience with the same visceral type of flight training like they have with all their planes, but especially with the 'vintage' planes.
It's kind of like teaching a kid to drive. Start out in a Prius, let them figure out the steering wheel, accelerator, and brake...but if they want to be good drivers with solid driving instinct, put them in an old stick....like an old stick shift jeep. Oh the embarrassment your kids must feel when stalling out while learning clutch with a line of traffic behind...it sucks, we were all there at one point or another eh? ...but we are good drivers for it. I remember when i was young, the first time I had to drive a stick a significant distance alone, I did NOT want to get stuck at a red light, I wanted to keep MOVING....and I made it almost all the way...then got stopped at a red light, first in line of course...I don't remember it totally, but I vaguely remember peeling out, hitting the clutch and gas...'aggressively'. It's funny cause all that stuff is fluid instinct now after all these years, even after periods of not driving a stick. Slightly off topic, you know a great thing about a stickshift? A lot fewer people can drive a stick, so the chances of your car getting stolen are a bit lower
This isn't a rant against automation. Automation through technological innovation has always had an excellent and much needed role, especially when the flying or driving tasks involve carrying precious cargo...ie loved ones.
Anyway, sorry for the long winded post.
I am curious what the CFIs and everyone think about automation and training.
Cheers
TJ
Basically speaking, the international pilot community is currently seriously deficient in basic stick and rudder skill sets as a result of the influx into the cockpit equation of glass and modern avionics.
Training (or lack of same as the case may be) is a factor in this equation.
Dudley Henriques
-
- Senior Master Sergeant
- Posts: 1837
- Joined: 26 Aug 2013, 22:03
- Location: Perth, W. Aust
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
I've never flown a twin IRL, but it seems to me the analogy with manual transmission cars is a good one. As a former driving instructor it was quite obvious that those who've learned to drive a manual gearbox make better drivers primarily because their ability to judge speed and distance is better. Speed and distance is something you have to think about to a much greater degree because of the need to be in the right gear, so you also learn anticipation which helps out in so many other situations on the road too. Anyone remember using a choke??? Automation makes for lazy motoring and flying too. I've always thought that if you can't drive a car with a manual gearbox, perhaps you really shouldn't have a license, unless there's some physical issue preventing the use of clutch and/or gear stick.
So I really hope A2A's first GA is a proper trainer, one in which you have to think about what you're doing.
Cheers,
Mike
So I really hope A2A's first GA is a proper trainer, one in which you have to think about what you're doing.
Cheers,
Mike
- DHenriques_
- A2A Chief Pilot
- Posts: 5711
- Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
- Location: East Coast United States
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
You can take that to the bank!Dogsbody55 wrote:I've never flown a twin IRL, but it seems to me the analogy with manual transmission cars is a good one. As a former driving instructor it was quite obvious that those who've learned to drive a manual gearbox make better drivers primarily because their ability to judge speed and distance is better. Speed and distance is something you have to think about to a much greater degree because of the need to be in the right gear, so you also learn anticipation which helps out in so many other situations on the road too. Anyone remember using a choke??? Automation makes for lazy motoring and flying too. I've always thought that if you can't drive a car with a manual gearbox, perhaps you really shouldn't have a license, unless there's some physical issue preventing the use of clutch and/or gear stick.
So I really hope A2A's first GA is a proper trainer, one in which you have to think about what you're doing.
Cheers,
Mike
DH
- Killratio
- A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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- Joined: 29 Jul 2008, 23:41
- Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
- Contact:
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
The biggest problem I see with automation is that it can (and at the moment often does) lead to the spare capacity being wasted rather than use AND an overreliance on the technology to the exclusion of good sense. The sort of thing that makes experienced pilots stall a 777 from 35,000ft to impact with the stick full back the whole way down because (failed) instruments indicate it MIGHT be the right thing to do.
Any 10 hour student who left a Cessna in a stall for 1/10th that long, regardless of what the instruments said, would probably be severely beaten by the instructor (and rightly so!)
Any 10 hour student who left a Cessna in a stall for 1/10th that long, regardless of what the instruments said, would probably be severely beaten by the instructor (and rightly so!)
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
We already have a pretty good GA trainer in the J-3. Read the A2A Piper J-3 Manual, starting from Page 8, about the 747 Captain who forgot how to fly.
Seeya
ATB
Seeya
ATB
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
Was an A330. The 777 was the one clipping its tail to the seawall. What comes to automation, the proportion of the accidents/incidents where mismanagement of the automation or confusion / unawareness of its working played important part. These are interesting case studies, because in many ways the subtleties of the system design create trap holes that can easily get one if not very careful in the use of it. Of course, in these cases the airplane manufacturers often do their best to put the blame on the pilots, at least in the public report, but given that likely the most pilots never run into these traps in regular flying (except that one time) allows a blind spot to form over them. In this day and age, while basic flying is one thing, also the managing of the systems and using them to assist one instead of having them as nuisance, is something that in my opinion should be stressed from the beginning.Killratio wrote:The sort of thing that makes experienced pilots stall a 777 from 35,000ft to impact with the stick full back the whole way down because (failed) instruments indicate it MIGHT be the right thing to do.
It makes a bit of dilemma to the folks like airline's management: while having strict procedures for the use of automation and in wider sense as well gives generally good, consistent results while an opposite approach is taken by some airlines which allow and encourage the pilots (and other folks as well) to exercise their own thinking and decision making. I could name one example of both from European flag carriers but I don't. As I have seen it, even if the managing culture of giving more freedom to the operators leads into whoops situation every now and then, this is more than compensated for in flexibility and readiness to take the situation into one's own hands, and in how comfortable people are in use of their tools as required instead of falling out of loop when attempting to use them as called for in a company guideline. In regular day these show in little things, such as approaches flown visually instead of ending up into unnecessary go-around if the automation doesn't perform as wanted, sensible use of MELs, flexibility in load & balance and so on.
But just yet another engineer's thoughts about automation here... I find it good to have, but also a must to know how to use.
What comes to car transmissions, I have always preferred manuals. Recently, I've grown into liking automatic boxes as well, as tiptronics and DSGs are more and more common and it is nice to get away of the clutch pedal, but I hate them downswitching on me without me asking for it and doing other stupid stuff! If there is no manual override, it takes some time to get used to.
Screens or photos or I don't believe you!DHenriquesA2A wrote:You can take that to the bank!Dogsbody55 wrote:So I really hope A2A's first GA is a proper trainer, one in which you have to think about what you're doing.
DH
-Esa
- DHenriques_
- A2A Chief Pilot
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- Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
- Location: East Coast United States
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
I can say this much with complete authority.AKar wrote:Was an A330. The 777 was the one clipping its tail to the seawall. What comes to automation, the proportion of the accidents/incidents where mismanagement of the automation or confusion / unawareness of its working played important part. These are interesting case studies, because in many ways the subtleties of the system design create trap holes that can easily get one if not very careful in the use of it. Of course, in these cases the airplane manufacturers often do their best to put the blame on the pilots, at least in the public report, but given that likely the most pilots never run into these traps in regular flying (except that one time) allows a blind spot to form over them. In this day and age, while basic flying is one thing, also the managing of the systems and using them to assist one instead of having them as nuisance, is something that in my opinion should be stressed from the beginning.Killratio wrote:The sort of thing that makes experienced pilots stall a 777 from 35,000ft to impact with the stick full back the whole way down because (failed) instruments indicate it MIGHT be the right thing to do.
It makes a bit of dilemma to the folks like airline's management: while having strict procedures for the use of automation and in wider sense as well gives generally good, consistent results while an opposite approach is taken by some airlines which allow and encourage the pilots (and other folks as well) to exercise their own thinking and decision making. I could name one example of both from European flag carriers but I don't. As I have seen it, even if the managing culture of giving more freedom to the operators leads into whoops situation every now and then, this is more than compensated for in flexibility and readiness to take the situation into one's own hands, and in how comfortable people are in use of their tools as required instead of falling out of loop when attempting to use them as called for in a company guideline. In regular day these show in little things, such as approaches flown visually instead of ending up into unnecessary go-around if the automation doesn't perform as wanted, sensible use of MELs, flexibility in load & balance and so on.
But just yet another engineer's thoughts about automation here... I find it good to have, but also a must to know how to use.
What comes to car transmissions, I have always preferred manuals. Recently, I've grown into liking automatic boxes as well, as tiptronics and DSGs are more and more common and it is nice to get away of the clutch pedal, but I hate them downswitching on me without me asking for it and doing other stupid stuff! If there is no manual override, it takes some time to get used to.
Screens or photos or I don't believe you!DHenriquesA2A wrote:You can take that to the bank!Dogsbody55 wrote:So I really hope A2A's first GA is a proper trainer, one in which you have to think about what you're doing.
DH
-Esa
When the next project being worked on now is released, those wanting the ultimate in an Accusim aircraft will NOT be disappointed.
DH
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
I am certain the disappointment won't be an applicable term. We live great times in simulation world!DHenriquesA2A wrote:When the next project being worked on now is released, those wanting the ultimate in an Accusim aircraft will NOT be disappointed.
-Esa
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
My brain's watering...DHenriquesA2A wrote:When the next project being worked on now is released, those wanting the ultimate in an Accusim aircraft will NOT be disappointed.
(If that makes any sense)
Erik Haugan Aasland,
Arendal, Norway
(Homebase: Kristiansand Lufthavn, Kjevik (ENCN)
All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!
Arendal, Norway
(Homebase: Kristiansand Lufthavn, Kjevik (ENCN)
All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
Hopefully it will be revealed at this year's FlightSimCon!DHenriquesA2A wrote:When the next project being worked on now is released, those wanting the ultimate in an Accusim aircraft will NOT be disappointed.
DH
Greetings
Tim
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- Airman First Class
- Posts: 95
- Joined: 08 Mar 2017, 20:00
Re: Ideal twin trainer...manual or automatic?
Isn't there an A2A video on youtube showing them testing the Aerostar?
Is that one next on the lineup to be released?
Is that one next on the lineup to be released?
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