The A2A Simulations Community

"Come share your passion for flight"
It is currently Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:43 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:15 pm 
Offline
Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:00 pm
Posts: 7
Hello to all!

I just acquired my first A2A aircraft. As a real world pilot (airline) and wanting to get back into general aviation, I thought I would try the Cherokee 180 for P3D. OMG!!! I was truly blown away. Immediately I acquired the 172, 182, and Comanche. I think these planes are top notch. Well worth the price (but don't tell my girlfriend I just dropped 200 clams, she would kill me LOL).

So here we are, my questions. I love the accusim portion of the A2A products. Since I have time in most of the aircraft I just bought, I'm not really looking to learn how to fly a 172. I am however looking to relearn how to fly general aviation. More to the point I have always wanted to own my own aircraft. Since P3D is for simulation/ training purposes :D I am looking to simulate owning my own aircraft. I have a xcell that outlines a variety of cost factors. Of course since we have accusim I can replace worn parts. Now we all know that sort of thing is pricey. And we all know the poor owner has to foot the bill for replacement parts.

So the questions:
1. Is there a location where each repair tally's up a $$$ cost (say in a file somewhere)?
2. If not to 1, has anybody done a similar study as what I am trying to do?
3. If yes to 2, where do I go to find the information?
4. If no to 2, than I suggest we pool our resources to get even more realism out of these wonderful planes!

Basically I am trying to simulate owning my own aircraft in as many ways as possible. Maintenance costs are a huge portion of this. And for the curious I am looking to virtually own the Comanche. So if anybody has parts and price list, or anything to that effect, please do share!!!

Again I love these planes and I look forward to many hours of flight! And I look forward to hearing your feedback.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:34 am 
Offline
A2A General
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:55 pm
Posts: 14636
Location: USA
plicpriest1,

Like you we've thought about what it would take to actually quantify all the repairs and keep a logbook of these changes. As an aircraft owner myself who is hands on and pays the bills, it's something I'm interested in too. I just can't say if and when we would make a move like this - it really depends on how we can complete our existing commitments.

Scott.

_________________
A2A Simulations Inc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:18 am 
Offline
A2A Lieutenant Colonel
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:22 pm
Posts: 25027
Location: Lowestoft Suffolk UK
Hello,

just to add to Scott's response I know a few community members have flown with the owners mentality the sim and kept documents about what they change and repair and then use google to find list prices for the parts etc they change and kept tracks and logs that way. I think you can find the prices for most stuff and estimates for overhauls and fitting and labor costs too, so you can get some estimates about what your sim habits might have cost in the real world.

thanks,
Lewis

_________________
A2A Facebook for news live to your social media newsfeed
A2A Youtube because a video can say a thousand screenshots,..
My twitter for my own twitter and random A2A insights
My Twitch for my own twitch live streaming


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:46 am 
Offline
Senior Airman
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:45 pm
Posts: 203
Location: Pasadena, CA
Amazing idea!

Maybe look in to Air Hauler 2 to simulate running a business. You do pay for repairs, but the sim-economy is not directly tied in to the Accusim data. Worth checking out for sure, based on your thoughts above. I love it, and it gives me a reason to fly more. All of the A2A aircraft are compatible.

https://www.justflight.com/product/air-hauler-2

Be aware this is still "Early Access" and under development.

_________________
P9X79 Pro | i7-3930K | GTX680 | Win10 | AdobeCC | Cinema4D
P3D V3 | FTX Global | FTX Vector | REX4+Soft Clouds | Active Sky Next | ChasePlane | AirHauler2
CH Pro Throttle | CH Combatstick | CH Pro Pedals | CH Eclipse Yoke


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:54 am 
Offline
Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:00 pm
Posts: 7
Ok cool. Ya I understand that putting that kind of work into the sim would be a large undertaking. And of course like everybody else I'm excited to see what I can get my hands on next.

I have done research and found prices for parts at aircraft spruce. In order to find the correct part number I guess I will need to get my hands on a specific aircraft type parts catalog.

Scott, if I may ask (if it is too direct feel free to reject my question or PM me), how do you do your calculations for cost? Is it wrapped up in an hourly rate that you compute? Or do you deposit into an account to cover the unexpected/ recurring MX items?

Thank you all for your replies. It is my hope to someday (soon I hope) own an aircraft. I know ownership is a huge undertaking and I am excited to see what I can learn from these amazing aircraft first.

Brian


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:00 am 
Offline
Senior Airman

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:29 pm
Posts: 128
Location: North Scotland UK
Was going to mention Air Hauler 2, it is early access but has been for some time and there have been many updates, wont be long before its final I'm sure, got it as a discount from owning the original Air Hauler, wonderful product.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:36 am 
Offline
Chief Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:30 pm
Posts: 2507
Location: Typically hanging around N07, 12N, KLDJ, KCDW
Spruce is more of a supply house for experimental aircraft. Not all of those parts can be used on certificated aircraft. Depending on the part, prices tend to be a little higher than what you find on Spruce for Cessnas, Pipers, Mooneys, etc.

I run a flying club and have become very intimate with the budgeting process I have inherited for the operations. This is how we break it down.

Fixed Costs (you pay these every year whether you fly 1 hour or 1000 hours)
1 Insurance (highly variable based on experience in type)
2 Annual + Inspections (ADs, Pitot/Static, ELT, Seat Rails) Safely $3-5K/year for a 4 seater SEL
3 Tie down/Hangar (In the NYC area, you can pay anywhere from $80/mo for a tiedown in grass to $900/mo for a hangar)
4 GPS + XM data subscriptions (~$110/month)
5 Re-paint reserve (paint wears out whether you fly or not and we assume a life of about 15 years with good upkeep) $1K/year
6 Supplies (cleaners, CO sensors, covers, etc.) probably negligible for an individual
7 Finance costs (you have to pay your aircraft loan!)
8 Depreciation (we recover a portion of depreciation to eventually replace the aircraft)

Operating Costs per hour
1 Fuel (past 6 months divided by hours actually flown)
2 Hourly maintenance (looking back over 4 years divided by hours flown, this is for work that is performed solely based on hours flown.)
3 Reserves (Prop overhaul cost/TBO + Engine overhaul cost/TBO)
4 Oil (average quarts/hr over a year)

That covers everything.

Parts can be very specific for some models of aircraft. I discovered that a C172SP Lycoming IO-360-L2A has some rather expensive hoses to replace during an engine overhaul. They are custom molded rubber and aluminum hoses that run over $1K for a set!! This is added into the engine overhaul reserve cost as they get done together.

I would HIGHLY recommend getting to know local pilots/owners in your area or join a club and get involved in the operations so you can learn what it takes to own and operate an aircraft. You learn a lot more than you expect and you get to develop relationships with the various maintenance shops and see what they are good/not so good at.

_________________
Image


Last edited by Oracle427 on Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:03 pm 
Offline
A2A Chief Pilot
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 4192
Location: East Coast United States
plicpriest1 wrote:
Ok cool. Ya I understand that putting that kind of work into the sim would be a large undertaking. And of course like everybody else I'm excited to see what I can get my hands on next.

I have done research and found prices for parts at aircraft spruce. In order to find the correct part number I guess I will need to get my hands on a specific aircraft type parts catalog.

Scott, if I may ask (if it is too direct feel free to reject my question or PM me), how do you do your calculations for cost? Is it wrapped up in an hourly rate that you compute? Or do you deposit into an account to cover the unexpected/ recurring MX items?

Thank you all for your replies. It is my hope to someday (soon I hope) own an aircraft. I know ownership is a huge undertaking and I am excited to see what I can learn from these amazing aircraft first.

Brian


Hi Brian;

What we did with our aircraft (for example our P51) was to do a cost study based on average hourly variable costs then factor in our 100 hour and annual inspection costs plus our insurance. The result was a projected hourly expense figure.
Many owners do it this way.
Dudley Henriques


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:11 pm 
Offline
Master Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:57 pm
Posts: 1480
Location: KAPC
These are great ideas guys. I too hope Accusim can eventually find its way to include some sort of virtual budgetary addon. Flying is flat out expensive, there is no other way to look at it. Whether we are Kermet Weeks types with a huge collection of antiques(and huge budget to match), or the 'struggling' owner of a GA plane or two, or maybe we are the owner of an FBO or aero club like Oracle, it would be awesome to have some kind of virtual monetary tracking system to work with Accusim.

Someday perhaps COTS and the full Accusim plate can all work together so we could have some sort of charter operation, where there is income involved. This would provide a fun motivation to improve flying skills as well as maintenance management.

Anyway, I look forward to Accusim and COTS's continued evolution and can't wait to see what you guys come up with next.

Cheers
TJ

_________________
"The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:07 pm 
Offline
Technical Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:10 am
Posts: 770
Location: Arendal, Norway
A combination of an effective cost calculator inside Accusim and the possibility of making certain airplanes be flying school planes/rent planes!!!

This would make the core Accusim come even further into everyday realism:

- The cost would be lower, kinda - being shared.
- The wear would come faster, the airplane preferably being flown much of the time.
- The "persistent" state would only be for the airplanes we keep as our "own" - in as much as it may have been operated much in the two weeks you weren't flying - adding hours on the hobbs, wear on various parts, different states of rest when found at the hanger.
- The walkaround would be eeeven more important - coming to the "sloppy seconds", as it were, after a student has rented a 172 to do circuits with his/her instructor, and you coming to rent it afterwards.

My mental mouth is watering... :-)

_________________
Erik Haugan Aasland,

Arendal, Norway
(Homebase: Kristiansand Lufthavn, Kjevik (ENCN)

All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:40 pm 
Offline
Staff Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:23 pm
Posts: 345
Location: (S05) U.S.A.
If there is a coder here in the midst that wants to work on something with me I have the program to do all this (and more) in my head. I have limited coding skills but the ideas are there. I want to create this program in the worst way but need help with it.

Roger

_________________
------ Fly Well, Be Nice, Have Fun ! ! ! ------

My YouTube channel with lots of flying videos
Asus X99a-i7 5930K @ 4500Hz-G.Skill 16GB 3000-980 Ti SC-950 Pro NVMe 256GB (OS)-850 Evo 500GBx2 Raid0-3TB HDD-EKWB Custom Cooling Loop
Proud pilot P51civ.T6.P40.B17.B377.L049


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:48 pm 
Offline
Airman Basic

Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:09 pm
Posts: 5
Hi,

Look here for some interesting expenses sample for a C172.
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-an ... alculation

and here:
http://www.cessna172club.com/forum/ubbt ... mber=61488

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:39 am 
Offline
Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:00 pm
Posts: 7
Thank you all for your replies! Lots of good information. Sorry it has taken me a few days to reply (working a trip).

For those that are also interested I found this: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... 83-19A.pdf
This is a free PDF paid for by tax dollars that the FAA has put out. Not the most exciting read, but has great information about registration and airworthiness certs. among other things.

So far I have been looking into costs on the web. I am getting close to starting my virtual ownership :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group