"We apologize for the problem..."

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AviatorMoser
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"We apologize for the problem..."

Post by AviatorMoser »

What problem?

After about 20 flights with perhaps only one problem, I've had seven in a row with an apology from the flight deck near the end of each flight. I have no idea what's causing this. I have not changed any of my flying, keep my descents around 500 FPM, ensure I have enough fuel in the tanks -- at least 10% in each, tanks 2 & 3 with less fuel than 1 & 4, avoid storms and ensure the seat belt is on when there is turbulence, and I follow the checklists religiously. It's a little ridiculous that each flight report ends with "you managed to land the plane safely!" for the past 7 times!

How can I diagnose what this problem is? There is just no feedback other than "We apologize for the problem."

EDIT: Actually, I believe my landings were under 130 US gallons on the outboards. This would be under 10% on those tanks.
Last edited by AviatorMoser on 28 May 2017, 10:54, edited 1 time in total.

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WB_FlashOver
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by WB_FlashOver »

Myself and a few others have determined that if your fuel gets below a certain percentage of total capacity (I believe 10% ?), you, for some reason have announced this situation to all the passengers and are now apologizing. I've had this as well a few times and came to this conclusion. I don't think you should be telling the passengers that you have low fuel. AND, I've landed with a range double of what I just flew and still apologized.

Now, I can see the crew looking at you with a scowl but the passengers should NOT be informed of this.

Watch your fuel over the next few flights and see what happens. And check back please as I am curious your results. I've not had this sense I started keeping lots of fuel on board.

Cheers
Roger
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Scott - A2A
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by Scott - A2A »

Yes, I am 75% sure the low fuel is triggering it and agree, unless an emergency is declared the passengers wouldn't be informed. So this is a tough one as the engine has to make some kind of determination if there was, in fact, emergency action as a result of low fuel.

Like many things in simulations, it's about balance. I can reduce this considerably to where you will only apologize if you have to land on fumes.

Scott.
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WB_FlashOver
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by WB_FlashOver »

Scott - A2A wrote:Yes, I am 75% sure the low fuel is triggering it and agree, unless an emergency is declared the passengers wouldn't be informed. So this is a tough one as the engine has to make some kind of determination if there was, in fact, emergency action as a result of low fuel.

Like many things in simulations, it's about balance. I can reduce this considerably to where you will only apologize if you have to land on fumes.

Scott.
Hi Scott and thanks for the reply. I'm curious... I believe the crew rates your flight as well as the passengers. It stands to reason that the crew could loose confidence in you if you are always underestimating fuel quantity. Could this situation be rated by only the crew unless it comes to the point that engines actually start wheezing and coughing to a stop while in flight?

The reason this is important to me is that I sometimes have a flight plan that puts me down at questionable length runways. That in mind I try to carry enough fuel for the flight and a go-a-round or two and maybe a divert to another field. This leaves me with little fuel on landing but for a good purpose.

Roger
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TreeTops
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by TreeTops »

That would be good Scott. Then we could really stretch the range getting to some remote islands. Fumes is a real possibility if the winds are bad. :)
Cheers
Trev

AviatorMoser
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by AviatorMoser »

Thanks for the reply. Perhaps it is the fuel. I had tried another flight with 600 US gallons of fuel on arrival and there was no apologies. I'm going to retract my statement that these previous flights had more than 10% of fuel in each tank. That was true for the inboards, but after double checking, it was not correct for the outboard tanks. I think this was the issue as I was going under 130 US gallons on the outboards.

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WB_FlashOver
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by WB_FlashOver »

AviatorMoser wrote:Thanks for the reply. Perhaps it is the fuel. I had tried another flight with 600 US gallons of fuel on arrival and there was no apologies. I'm going to retract my statement that these previous flights had more than 10% of fuel in each tank. That was true for the inboards, but after double checking, it was not correct for the outboard tanks. I think this was the issue as I was going under 130 US gallons on the outboards.
Thanks for checking back AviatorMoser. So if I understand your fuel levels, it is not percentage of total fuel but percentage of fuel per tank that triggers the emergency? It sounds like we might get a tweak to the Connie in this area with next Core update.

I would really like to see some after flight information as well. Maintenance costs are a nice touch but knowing what was repaired would be very helpful. Am I consistently abusing my engines or other systems that is causing an accelerated overhaul schedule?

Happy flying
Roger
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FAC257
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by FAC257 »

Guys,

Unless something has changed, the trigger for the pilot's apology at the end of the flight, is when the first tank hits 10%. It's not based on anything other than a single tank hitting the 10% mark, and only that first one.

It doesn't matter what fuel levels are at the end of the flight, if at any time during the flight, one tank hits 10%.


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Scott - A2A
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by Scott - A2A »

Thanks for that info Forest, and yes Roger, we can make it so the crew only notices.

Scott.
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P*Funk
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by P*Funk »

Given that the tanks are different capacities and that you're supposed to below I believe 3200 gallons or something operate them at equal quantities and as independent fuel systems shouldn't the percentage that triggers the emergency be something other than a flat 10% of any tank? This would mean no emergency is reported for the smaller tanks until they're at something less than 100 gallons right? But for the larger ones it means it'll be closer to 155ish.

Total fuel capacity of the tanks together is over 4700 gallons. Shouldn't 10% of the total fuel remaining split between 4 tanks assuming correct fueling procedures (equal fuel across 4 tanks below 3200) cause an emergency if any tank drops below something more like ~120 gallons [(4700*0.1)/4=117.5]?

alan CXA651
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi.
I dissagree , 10% in any tank is to big a figure , because you can still fly on this saftly for 1:15 hr and still have required 45 min reserve , i think the emergency figure of 10% could be made 5% so you would have to find nearest airport when emergency is declared, in order to leave 45min reserve on shutdown.
regards alan. 8)
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CAPFlyer
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by CAPFlyer »

"Safely Fly" is not a proper calculation. The proper way to calculate fuel reserves is at "normal cruise consumption". Even back in the 1950s you were required to have 45 minutes reserve *OR* sufficient fuel to make the closest alternate to the destination *PLUS* 45 minutes if it wasn't within 50 miles of the destination. There were (and are) also adjustments for flights overwater as well (usually the 45 minutes plus the amount of fuel required to an alternate from the "most remote" location along your proposed routing). However, since A2A can't "know", then either a 45 minute or 1 hour "minimum" should be sufficient.

Per the charts, a good "middle ground" says that you need 340 gallons of fuel for 1 hour of operation at 16,000 feet. The lowest "normal" cruise fuel consumption on the charts is 317, the highest is 357, so I think that's a good "average". So, if you drop below 340 gallons total, then you're into your fuel emergency. Right now, the "10%" rule leaves you with a little over 480 gallons, or 1.4 hours of flying at "normal cruise". So, yes, that's about double the minimum, but it's still not that long, and definitely well under safety margins for something like a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific to Hawaii flight. If we changed the amount to 10% of total capacity, there's almost no change, with the new amount being 482 gallons, so another half minute (maybe) of flight? I don't think 10% either way is an unreasonably high amount. I've flown several "max range" flights in the Connie at MTOW and never gotten below 20% total fuel on landing, even with a pretty stiff headwind, so I think it's more than possible to not get gigged for it no matter how far you go.
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P*Funk
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Re: "We apologize for the problem..."

Post by P*Funk »

CAPFlyer wrote:Right now, the "10%" rule leaves you with a little over 480 gallons, or 1.4 hours of flying at "normal cruise".
My experience is not this because if the 10% rule applies to any tank then its actually counting an emergency whenever the outboard tanks reach 10% and that's when they're at ~155 gallons and since normal procedures is for you to run all tanks equal below a certain amount this effectively causes you to have a fuel emergency at 620 gallons total which is actually 13% of total, if you're running your airplane by the book. I could cheat and just move fuel around to cheat this counter but then that would let me go as low as 5% fuel I'm guessing.

The issue is how it counts 10% of a single tank and not the fuel total. Instead of a percentage it should count a given amount of fuel in any tank and that value should be the same because the book says run all tanks to equal levels below a given amount of fuel. If all tanks are filled equally they won't be at 10% left at the same time and none of the tanks constitutes an equal 25% fuel capacity of total.

I have no arguments with setting a normal percentage for safety but right now the product of the coding doesn't reflect the intent. The emergency is triggering at a higher fuel load than it seems A2A is intending it to by grace of a poorly conceived means of measuring this condition.

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