St Barts Landing

[ratty]

1,200 gallons, 44pax. Odd noises from the back right after touchdown.

https://youtu.be/g5YV7mV7PUM

[gulredrel]

FE is constantly flapping some switches in fear Or somebody loaded a grandfather clock (hope that'S the right term for the German "Standuhr") in the back.

[Stratocruiser2]

1,200 gallons, 44pax. Odd noises from the back right after touchdown.

https://youtu.be/g5YV7mV7PUM

Dive approach over the hill onto 10 or curved approach to 28?

Bill

Edit: Ooops, missed the video link on the post!

[alan CXA651]

Hi.
Considdering that runway is short and steep approach , a soft landing is impossible , but that looked like a safe but firm landing , well done .
regards alan.

[ratty]

FE is constantly flapping some switches in fear Or somebody loaded a grandfather clock (hope that'S the right term for the German "Standuhr") in the back.

It must be the clock. I can't imagine my crew being nervous about my flying.

[DHenriques_]

1,200 gallons, 44pax. Odd noises from the back right after touchdown.

https://youtu.be/g5YV7mV7PUM

Nice film. I know that approach. It can indeed be tricky.

One thing I noticed on the thread. I've commented below just for general information.

I did extensive testing on the issue of raising flaps after touchdown during the seventies for flight instructor seminars. Our findings were that although there was much argument at the time (and still is for that matter )) about flap retraction adding brake effectiveness, the resulting loss of drag from raising them immediately after touchdown coupled with the danger of inadvertent gear retraction on retracts outweighed any benefit.
For an aircraft the size of a Connie I’d be looking for these factors to be even more pertinent.
My advice has always been to leave the flaps alone until exiting the runway OR when and if a go around becomes necessary and retraction to a max lift intermediate position is specified by manufacturer’s procedures.
Just a data point.

[ratty]

1,200 gallons, 44pax. Odd noises from the back right after touchdown.

https://youtu.be/g5YV7mV7PUM

Nice film. I know that approach. It can indeed be tricky.

One thing I noticed on the thread. I've commented below just for general information.

I did extensive testing on the issue of raising flaps after touchdown during the seventies for flight instructor seminars. Our findings were that although there was much argument at the time (and still is for that matter )) about flap retraction adding brake effectiveness, the resulting loss of drag from raising them immediately after touchdown coupled with the danger of inadvertent gear retraction on retracts outweighed any benefit.
For an aircraft the size of a Connie I’d be looking for these factors to be even more pertinent.
My advice has always been to leave the flaps alone until exiting the runway OR when and if a go around becomes necessary and retraction to a max lift intermediate position is specified by manufacturer’s procedures.
Just a data point.

Dudley:

Thanks for the nudge. When I was learning, many decades ago, we always raised the flaps AFTER exiting the active. Somewhere along the line I've picked up the habit of raising the flaps right after I get solid ground contact, without considering the specific situation. In this case, I think I'd have been better off retaining the flap drag rather than relying entirely on the (indifferent) wheel brakes.

[DHenriques_]

1,200 gallons, 44pax. Odd noises from the back right after touchdown.

https://youtu.be/g5YV7mV7PUM

Nice film. I know that approach. It can indeed be tricky.

One thing I noticed on the thread. I've commented below just for general information.

I did extensive testing on the issue of raising flaps after touchdown during the seventies for flight instructor seminars. Our findings were that although there was much argument at the time (and still is for that matter )) about flap retraction adding brake effectiveness, the resulting loss of drag from raising them immediately after touchdown coupled with the danger of inadvertent gear retraction on retracts outweighed any benefit.
For an aircraft the size of a Connie I’d be looking for these factors to be even more pertinent.
My advice has always been to leave the flaps alone until exiting the runway OR when and if a go around becomes necessary and retraction to a max lift intermediate position is specified by manufacturer’s procedures.
Just a data point.

Dudley:

Thanks for the nudge. When I was learning, many decades ago, we always raised the flaps AFTER exiting the active. Somewhere along the line I've picked up the habit of raising the flaps right after I get solid ground contact, without considering the specific situation. In this case, I think I'd have been better off retaining the flap drag rather than relying entirely on the (indifferent) wheel brakes.

You can still find many pilots out here who were taught to raise them.
St Barts has bitten many a good pilot. I've been in there with two types; a Cherokee 6 and a Mustang. Both times were hairy. You have to cut that hilltop close or be too high. If your
over the fence speed is 5 kts too fast you could be in for a go around or a bath.
DH

[metaldesk44]

1,200 gallons, 44pax. Odd noises from the back right after touchdown.

https://youtu.be/g5YV7mV7PUM

Nice film. I know that approach. It can indeed be tricky.

One thing I noticed on the thread. I've commented below just for general information.

I did extensive testing on the issue of raising flaps after touchdown during the seventies for flight instructor seminars. Our findings were that although there was much argument at the time (and still is for that matter )) about flap retraction adding brake effectiveness, the resulting loss of drag from raising them immediately after touchdown coupled with the danger of inadvertent gear retraction on retracts outweighed any benefit.
For an aircraft the size of a Connie I’d be looking for these factors to be even more pertinent.
My advice has always been to leave the flaps alone until exiting the runway OR when and if a go around becomes necessary and retraction to a max lift intermediate position is specified by manufacturer’s procedures.
Just a data point.

Interesting, I only got in the habit of immediately raising flaps after watching a old video about the B-17. I guess i will have to rethink that!

[ResidentEVO]

You flew a P-51 into St Barts?!

[DHenriques_]

You flew a P-51 into St Barts?!

Yes. You DO know I'm talking about the simulator ? LOL
And the Cherokee was a 180 not a 6. Sorry .

For the real Mustang, assuming you got the good word from Tradewinds Aviation, (you need to be signed off) a 51 in there poses no big issues really. You're a bit hot but it's doable in a civilian configured Mustang at around 9000lbs GW in 2000 ft leaving the flaps down at 50 and using some brakes.

DH

[CAPFlyer]

Texas Flying Legends took their fleet down there, but no one was balls enough to actually try touching down. The show of them making high speed passes down the line and the runway was a much better show anyway.

"The Movie"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcpRYMa ... D&index=12

"From the Cockpit"
https://youtu.be/CcmE7QI1WZY?list=PL_ib ... -Qgv1yoUqD

The late Bob Odegaard and his son Casey flying the FG-1D and P-51 respectively on those passes and hearing the howls of those planes is magical.

[DHenriques_]

Texas Flying Legends took their fleet down there, but no one was balls enough to actually try touching down. The show of them making high speed passes down the line and the runway was a much better show anyway.

"The Movie"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcpRYMa ... D&index=12

"From the Cockpit"
https://youtu.be/CcmE7QI1WZY?list=PL_ib ... -Qgv1yoUqD

The late Bob Odegaard and his son Casey flying the FG-1D and P-51 respectively on those passes and hearing the howls of those planes is magical.

Landing there requires a sign off from a Tradewinds CFI especially trained to teach both approaches. I remember the guys buzzing the place. Quite a show I heard.
DH

[CAPFlyer]

I meant no one had the balls to try and get the certification, and I meant it in jest. My understanding from Doug at the time was that they all took turns landing in the Cherokee Six they were using as the "Camera Ship" and got signed off, but even if the numbers said they could do it in a B-25, there was no question it wasn't going to be attempted.

They've kept it up too. Here's 2015 when they took Rod Lewis's 2 F7F Tigercats and his B-25 "Russian To Get Ya" in addition to TFL's Zero Replica, FG-1D, TBM-3E, P-40K, and B-25J "Betty's Dream".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-bEiW_L1Jg

[Lewis - A2A]

haha nice, if I ever tried that I'd be right in the drink