Flying from the backseat

[Medtner]

I've had many hours in the AT-6 now, and have become relatively proficient at it. Landings are always extra fun and challenging, but not to the point of being dangerous.

I've put off using the backseat to aim for proficiency in the front first. Besides, can it really be that difficult?

It is.

As Kermit Weeks says in his fantastic video on his AT-6 it is a fantastic trainer and if you can land it from the backseat you can land anything.

The difficulty arises already during taxiing, having started it from the front (the instructor would do this, I assume). The visibility is very bad, and the fact that one is sitting lower and closer to the tailwheel makes the perspective and feeling of control scewed and weird.
It doesn't have all the controls in the back by far, and one is limited to more basic stuff, which will prove to be part of the fun too. In fact, it does feel more like a giant Piper Cub from the back seat - the instrumentation is sufficiently bare bones.

During the run up one needs to hold the brakes with the feet - the parking brake can only be set from the front. It's probably a good idea anyway as one can release the brakes quicker if the tail should want to come up for some reason, which I had happen for the first time ever in the AT-6 today. My left magneto was suficciently fouled to produce no sparks at all - the engine wanted to quit completely when checking the left mag. I needed full takeoff power to get high enough temps to clear it, and trying this I had the tail wobble up a bit. Brakes released quickly saved the day.

The takeoff was not the worst part, but still scary - having only the margins of my view to use as reference. During climb the aircraft felt significantly heavier and the CG was different enough to notice. I'm a heavy guy, and sitting in the backseat way back from the normal CG, and the instructors added weight, were both factors that changed the experience.

The pattern feels differently as well. It feels like I'm in the back of a limo - coming around the corner after the front has done so. My tendency in general to fly the downwind not quite parallell to the runway, and instead drifting slowly closer to the runway, was more prominent here. It could be the crosswind pushing the tail away from the runway and thereby pushing the nose towards it, weathervaning, but I'm sure something else was at hand. I'm glad to get tips here.

The backseat doesn't have hydraulic gauge, nor flap indicators. Combine this with the fact that the gear lock-windows aren't easily seen from the backseat, and you have the reason for why this is more of a Cub-feeling. Seat of the pants flying is the deal here. The gear coming up (or down) makes a noticable thump and can be used as confirmation that the green lights extinguishing (or lighting up) are indeed indicating correctly. The usage of flaps is also left to the feeling of the aircraft. I found my self using bigger increments to get a more positive feedback from the handling. I guess I used something like 0, half, and full flaps, instead of more gradual increments. This made for very different feeling of preparing the aircraft for landing.

The base and final never quite got right, in great contrast to my proficiency flying from the front. I was always to low and had to power my way to the runway. This resulted in monstrously bad visibility and I had to do some maneuvering to find the runway. I can now see that flying from the backseat requires quite a bit of altitude to get the needed visibility.

Just before touchdown I always had some scary seconds where I couldn't see shite. I knew the runway had to be there, but it only showed peripherally in the last seconds. This is also the time where I again noticed the different CG - the heavier tail made for more rapid sinking and I had to use lots of power to avoid bricking into the ground.

Once on the runway it was more familiar, dancing on the pedals while holding the tail up into the airflow.

I had a tiresome 3 quarters of an hour, and need much more time to relearn this fantastic trainer.

How wonderful that just moving to the backseat can be so much challenge and fun! The AT-6 is born again for me!

(Tips from people with more experience is appreciated!)

[DHenriques_]

I've had many hours in the AT-6 now, and have become relatively proficient at it. Landings are always extra fun and challenging, but not to the point of being dangerous.

I've put off using the backseat to aim for proficiency in the front first. Besides, can it really be that difficult?

It is.

As Kermit Weeks says in his fantastic video on his AT-6 it is a fantastic trainer and if you can land it from the backseat you can land anything.

The difficulty arises already during taxiing, having started it from the front (the instructor would do this, I assume). The visibility is very bad, and the fact that one is sitting lower and closer to the tailwheel makes the perspective and feeling of control scewed and weird.
It doesn't have all the controls in the back by far, and one is limited to more basic stuff, which will prove to be part of the fun too. In fact, it does feel more like a giant Piper Cub from the back seat - the instrumentation is sufficiently bare bones.

During the run up one needs to hold the brakes with the feet - the parking brake can only be set from the front. It's probably a good idea anyway as one can release the brakes quicker if the tail should want to come up for some reason, which I had happen for the first time ever in the AT-6 today. My left magneto was suficciently fouled to produce no sparks at all - the engine wanted to quit completely when checking the left mag. I needed full takeoff power to get high enough temps to clear it, and trying this I had the tail wobble up a bit. Brakes released quickly saved the day.

The takeoff was not the worst part, but still scary - having only the margins of my view to use as reference. During climb the aircraft felt significantly heavier and the CG was different enough to notice. I'm a heavy guy, and sitting in the backseat way back from the normal CG, and the instructors added weight, were both factors that changed the experience.

The pattern feels differently as well. It feels like I'm in the back of a limo - coming around the corner after the front has done so. My tendency in general to fly the downwind not quite parallell to the runway, and instead drifting slowly closer to the runway, was more prominent here. It could be the crosswind pushing the tail away from the runway and thereby pushing the nose towards it, weathervaning, but I'm sure something else was at hand. I'm glad to get tips here.

The backseat doesn't have hydraulic gauge, nor flap indicators. Combine this with the fact that the gear lock-windows aren't easily seen from the backseat, and you have the reason for why this is more of a Cub-feeling. Seat of the pants flying is the deal here. The gear coming up (or down) makes a noticable thump and can be used as confirmation that the green lights extinguishing (or lighting up) are indeed indicating correctly. The usage of flaps is also left to the feeling of the aircraft. I found my self using bigger increments to get a more positive feedback from the handling. I guess I used something like 0, half, and full flaps, instead of more gradual increments. This made for very different feeling of preparing the aircraft for landing.

The base and final never quite got right, in great contrast to my proficiency flying from the front. I was always to low and had to power my way to the runway. This resulted in monstrously bad visibility and I had to do some maneuvering to find the runway. I can now see that flying from the backseat requires quite a bit of altitude to get the needed visibility.

Just before touchdown I always had some scary seconds where I couldn't see shite. I knew the runway had to be there, but it only showed peripherally in the last seconds. This is also the time where I again noticed the different CG - the heavier tail made for more rapid sinking and I had to use lots of power to avoid bricking into the ground.

Once on the runway it was more familiar, dancing on the pedals while holding the tail up into the airflow.

I had a tiresome 3 quarters of an hour, and need much more time to relearn this fantastic trainer.

How wonderful that just moving to the backseat can be so much challenge and fun! The AT-6 is born again for me!

(Tips from people with more experience is appreciated!)

The 6 is restricted for solo from the back seat for the reasons you have stated. I'd have to do an actual W&B on a specific T6 to get an answer on the cg question. An initial guess would be that a rear seat pilot with no one in the front wouldn't cause a rear cg issue but the other reasons for the restriction would remain.
Flying from the rear seat as Kermit stated was always done with pilot interfacing from the front at least to my knowledge.
I checked out several pilots in the T6 in this manner who were then going on into Mustangs. One to a Bearcat.
So if you are flying solo from the back with no one in front you are technically in violation of the Dash 1 restriction.
Dudley Henriques

[Medtner]

I've had many hours in the AT-6 now, and have become relatively proficient at it. Landings are always extra fun and challenging, but not to the point of being dangerous.

I've put off using the backseat to aim for proficiency in the front first. Besides, can it really be that difficult?

It is.

As Kermit Weeks says in his fantastic video on his AT-6 it is a fantastic trainer and if you can land it from the backseat you can land anything.

The difficulty arises already during taxiing, having started it from the front (the instructor would do this, I assume). The visibility is very bad, and the fact that one is sitting lower and closer to the tailwheel makes the perspective and feeling of control scewed and weird.
It doesn't have all the controls in the back by far, and one is limited to more basic stuff, which will prove to be part of the fun too. In fact, it does feel more like a giant Piper Cub from the back seat - the instrumentation is sufficiently bare bones.

During the run up one needs to hold the brakes with the feet - the parking brake can only be set from the front. It's probably a good idea anyway as one can release the brakes quicker if the tail should want to come up for some reason, which I had happen for the first time ever in the AT-6 today. My left magneto was suficciently fouled to produce no sparks at all - the engine wanted to quit completely when checking the left mag. I needed full takeoff power to get high enough temps to clear it, and trying this I had the tail wobble up a bit. Brakes released quickly saved the day.

The takeoff was not the worst part, but still scary - having only the margins of my view to use as reference. During climb the aircraft felt significantly heavier and the CG was different enough to notice. I'm a heavy guy, and sitting in the backseat way back from the normal CG, and the instructors added weight, were both factors that changed the experience.

The pattern feels differently as well. It feels like I'm in the back of a limo - coming around the corner after the front has done so. My tendency in general to fly the downwind not quite parallell to the runway, and instead drifting slowly closer to the runway, was more prominent here. It could be the crosswind pushing the tail away from the runway and thereby pushing the nose towards it, weathervaning, but I'm sure something else was at hand. I'm glad to get tips here.

The backseat doesn't have hydraulic gauge, nor flap indicators. Combine this with the fact that the gear lock-windows aren't easily seen from the backseat, and you have the reason for why this is more of a Cub-feeling. Seat of the pants flying is the deal here. The gear coming up (or down) makes a noticable thump and can be used as confirmation that the green lights extinguishing (or lighting up) are indeed indicating correctly. The usage of flaps is also left to the feeling of the aircraft. I found my self using bigger increments to get a more positive feedback from the handling. I guess I used something like 0, half, and full flaps, instead of more gradual increments. This made for very different feeling of preparing the aircraft for landing.

The base and final never quite got right, in great contrast to my proficiency flying from the front. I was always to low and had to power my way to the runway. This resulted in monstrously bad visibility and I had to do some maneuvering to find the runway. I can now see that flying from the backseat requires quite a bit of altitude to get the needed visibility.

Just before touchdown I always had some scary seconds where I couldn't see shite. I knew the runway had to be there, but it only showed peripherally in the last seconds. This is also the time where I again noticed the different CG - the heavier tail made for more rapid sinking and I had to use lots of power to avoid bricking into the ground.

Once on the runway it was more familiar, dancing on the pedals while holding the tail up into the airflow.

I had a tiresome 3 quarters of an hour, and need much more time to relearn this fantastic trainer.

How wonderful that just moving to the backseat can be so much challenge and fun! The AT-6 is born again for me!

(Tips from people with more experience is appreciated!)

The 6 is restricted for solo from the back seat for the reasons you have stated. I'd have to do an actual W&B on a specific T6 to get an answer on the cg question. An initial guess would be that a rear seat pilot with no one in the front wouldn't cause a rear cg issue but the other reasons for the restriction would remain.
Flying from the rear seat as Kermit stated was always done with pilot interfacing from the front at least to my knowledge.
I checked out several pilots in the T6 in this manner who were then going on into Mustangs. One to a Bearcat.
So if you are flying solo from the back with no one in front you are technically in violation of the Dash 1 restriction.
Dudley Henriques

I was having a person in front too, if that was unclear, mimicking a scenario where I had an instructor.

With only me in the backseat I'm sure it would be close to unflyable.

[DHenriques_]

I've had many hours in the AT-6 now, and have become relatively proficient at it. Landings are always extra fun and challenging, but not to the point of being dangerous.

I've put off using the backseat to aim for proficiency in the front first. Besides, can it really be that difficult?

It is.

As Kermit Weeks says in his fantastic video on his AT-6 it is a fantastic trainer and if you can land it from the backseat you can land anything.

The difficulty arises already during taxiing, having started it from the front (the instructor would do this, I assume). The visibility is very bad, and the fact that one is sitting lower and closer to the tailwheel makes the perspective and feeling of control scewed and weird.
It doesn't have all the controls in the back by far, and one is limited to more basic stuff, which will prove to be part of the fun too. In fact, it does feel more like a giant Piper Cub from the back seat - the instrumentation is sufficiently bare bones.

During the run up one needs to hold the brakes with the feet - the parking brake can only be set from the front. It's probably a good idea anyway as one can release the brakes quicker if the tail should want to come up for some reason, which I had happen for the first time ever in the AT-6 today. My left magneto was suficciently fouled to produce no sparks at all - the engine wanted to quit completely when checking the left mag. I needed full takeoff power to get high enough temps to clear it, and trying this I had the tail wobble up a bit. Brakes released quickly saved the day.

The takeoff was not the worst part, but still scary - having only the margins of my view to use as reference. During climb the aircraft felt significantly heavier and the CG was different enough to notice. I'm a heavy guy, and sitting in the backseat way back from the normal CG, and the instructors added weight, were both factors that changed the experience.

The pattern feels differently as well. It feels like I'm in the back of a limo - coming around the corner after the front has done so. My tendency in general to fly the downwind not quite parallell to the runway, and instead drifting slowly closer to the runway, was more prominent here. It could be the crosswind pushing the tail away from the runway and thereby pushing the nose towards it, weathervaning, but I'm sure something else was at hand. I'm glad to get tips here.

The backseat doesn't have hydraulic gauge, nor flap indicators. Combine this with the fact that the gear lock-windows aren't easily seen from the backseat, and you have the reason for why this is more of a Cub-feeling. Seat of the pants flying is the deal here. The gear coming up (or down) makes a noticable thump and can be used as confirmation that the green lights extinguishing (or lighting up) are indeed indicating correctly. The usage of flaps is also left to the feeling of the aircraft. I found my self using bigger increments to get a more positive feedback from the handling. I guess I used something like 0, half, and full flaps, instead of more gradual increments. This made for very different feeling of preparing the aircraft for landing.

The base and final never quite got right, in great contrast to my proficiency flying from the front. I was always to low and had to power my way to the runway. This resulted in monstrously bad visibility and I had to do some maneuvering to find the runway. I can now see that flying from the backseat requires quite a bit of altitude to get the needed visibility.

Just before touchdown I always had some scary seconds where I couldn't see shite. I knew the runway had to be there, but it only showed peripherally in the last seconds. This is also the time where I again noticed the different CG - the heavier tail made for more rapid sinking and I had to use lots of power to avoid bricking into the ground.

Once on the runway it was more familiar, dancing on the pedals while holding the tail up into the airflow.

I had a tiresome 3 quarters of an hour, and need much more time to relearn this fantastic trainer.

How wonderful that just moving to the backseat can be so much challenge and fun! The AT-6 is born again for me!

(Tips from people with more experience is appreciated!)

The 6 is restricted for solo from the back seat for the reasons you have stated. I'd have to do an actual W&B on a specific T6 to get an answer on the cg question. An initial guess would be that a rear seat pilot with no one in the front wouldn't cause a rear cg issue but the other reasons for the restriction would remain.
Flying from the rear seat as Kermit stated was always done with pilot interfacing from the front at least to my knowledge.
I checked out several pilots in the T6 in this manner who were then going on into Mustangs. One to a Bearcat.
So if you are flying solo from the back with no one in front you are technically in violation of the Dash 1 restriction.
Dudley Henriques

I was having a person in front too, if that was unclear, mimicking a scenario where I had an instructor.

With only me in the backseat I'm sure it would be close to unflyable.

Then you're good to go. As you noted the main difference in landing the 6 from the back is in runway visual cue loss.
Don't fly the same final you do from the front seat. The best approach is a circling approach similar to the Mustang. This keeps the runway in sight all through the base and final turn. Plan to be a bit high and slightly SLOW about 1/2 mile out then carefully line it up making any crosswind correction you need. Then lower the nose just enough to see the FAR END of the runway. THAT will be your line up reference until you flare. AS you flare the airspeed should now be up to where it should be for the flare. Watch the runway disappear under the nose and simultaneously go to the sides of the runway. Keep BOTH sides EVEN distance wise in your peripheral vision as you flare. Try landing on the mains tail low as you can "fly it down to ground contact and the nose isn't as high as in a 3 point landing.
Practice this and see how it goes.
Dudley Henriques