Oh, Tell Me About It

[Oracle427]

Use the trim so you don't have to hold back pressure to maintain that airspeed.

[Orlaam]

The trick for me is lowering the throttle (one notch of flaps) enough that I am pulling the yoke hard to stay level.
That's 80 - 90 mph.

As mentioned above, just keep trimming. This plane seems to require a lot more trim than my other add-ons, however, trimming a lot in real world is typical in all aircraft. So lay on that trim button/wheel until the plane levels out or maintains the angle you seek to hold.

[Dogsbody55]

I disagree. My CFI told me that once you have the trim around neutral, (depending on load distribution) you control the plane purely with pitch and throttle because too much use of trim disguises what the plane is doing. In other words, you're masking the feel of the plane by using trim to fly the plane, and this is especially dangerous in the landing configuration. Doing this is harder but you learn to manage speed and rate of descent better and will eventually master your landings.

Try this. Downwind leg; 95 to 100mph, gear down and landing checks Trim neutral with 1 or 2 people. Turn onto base leg, reduce power and first notch flaps. Maintain 85mph. Turn onto final and second notch flaps. Maintain 80mph. As you cross the boundary, aim for 75 mph then cut power as you flare and hold off as you keep your eye fixed on the end of the runway. You should touch down smoothly at about 60 to 65 mph. Also, forget the knots/mph thing - just fly by the indicated numbers.

To land a plane you need to be low and slow which is always dangerous, so you need to be in full control. Relying on trim is counter to that notion.


Cheers,
Mike

[DHenriques_]

I disagree. My CFI told me that once you have the trim around neutral, (depending on load distribution) you control the plane purely with pitch and throttle because too much use of trim disguises what the plane is doing. In other words, you're masking the feel of the plane by using trim to fly the plane, and this is especially dangerous in the landing configuration. Doing this is harder but you learn to manage speed and rate of descent better and will eventually master your landings.

Try this. Downwind leg; 95 to 100mph, gear down and landing checks Trim neutral with 1 or 2 people. Turn onto base leg, reduce power and first notch flaps. Maintain 85mph. Turn onto final and second notch flaps. Maintain 80mph. As you cross the boundary, aim for 75 mph then cut power as you flare and hold off as you keep your eye fixed on the end of the runway. You should touch down smoothly at about 60 to 65 mph. Also, forget the knots/mph thing - just fly by the indicated numbers.

To land a plane you need to be low and slow which is always dangerous, so you need to be in full control. Relying on trim is counter to that notion.


Cheers,
Mike

I'd like to offer a respectful comment if I may.

Flying a pattern properly you should be re-trimming for each configuration change. You can get away with not doing this in a light airplane but as you begin to fly heavier aircraft your use of trim in the pattern will become more and more important.
This should NOT be misconstrued to mean you fly the aircraft with trim. You NEVER should be flying the airplane using trim for primary pitch. What it means is that for every configuration change you should be trimming off the pressure into a neutral pitch area for that configuration.
There is one exception to this rule. You trim and retrim until you are ready for your flare or in the case of a heavier airplane, near the threshold. As you reach that spot in your approach the aircraft should be trimmed for it's final configuration as to flaps, gear, rate of descent and airspeed. At THIS point you accept the trim and land the aircraft using primary controls.
If a go around becomes necessary, you initiate to a climb attitude using primary controls, reconfigure as altitude dictates then re-trim the airplane.
Dudley Henriques

[Oracle427]

The key is not to use trim to fly the airplane. Set the pitch attitude, and then trim out the control pressure. It takes a couple of seconds in the real aircraft. If the pilot keeps trimming in response to pitch changes that is not correct as that would be flying using the trim.

In a 172 it's very easy to hold the stick back and ignite the trim, but I believe that would likely lead to a less stable approach. Now on a 182, it would be very tiring to not retrim as the aircraft slows down from 90 to 65 knots. The yoke is heavy on that plane and you'd probably be holding around 10-15lbs/4-7kg of force without using the trim after downwind. It would also require a lot of pressure during the flare.

[DHenriques_]

The key is not to use trim to fly the airplane. Set the pitch attitude, and then trim out the control pressure. It takes a couple of seconds in the real aircraft. If the pilot keeps trimming in response to pitch changes that is not correct as that would be flying using the trim.

In a 172 it's very easy to hold the stick back and ignite the trim, but I believe that would likely lead to a less stable approach. Now on a 182, it would be very tiring to not retrim as the aircraft slows down from 90 to 65 knots. The yoke is heavy on that plane and you'd probably be holding around 10-15lbs/4-7kg of force without using the trim after downwind. It would also require a lot of pressure during the flare.

Reading this I see a bit of ambiguity that might need a bit of clearing up for the novice pilot.

It is correct to say you do NOT fly the aircraft with the trim, but explaining that by saying you don't trim in response to a pitch change can be confusing as trimming after a pitch change is EXACTLY how trim is properly used.
The key in understanding this in discussing an approach is separating the terms "pitch change" and "configuration change" as these relate to trim use.
You FLY the aircraft using primary controls. This means establishing a pitch change using stick or yoke pressure. THEN you trim the airplane. Using the KISS principle it's always NOSE, POWER, TRIM, in that order.
Conversely you NEVER INITIATE a pitch change using trim. Doing that constitutes "flying the aircraft with trim".
In instructing we run into the problem of explaining trim and the ever present confusion issue concerning pitch change all the time. It's very easy to confuse the student if the instructor isn't careful due to the relationship between trim and pitch change.
This is why In explaining trim I use the term "configuration change" when dealing with the use of trim on the approach.
On one hand we don't want the student leading a pitch change with trim which would be "flying the aircraft using trim" but on the flip side we DO want the student to realize that with every change in power and every change in flap setting as well as gear extension or RPM change, these actions will affect pitch and require a trim change. Explaining it that way helps to eliminate the confusion about pitch change and trim use.
So the bottom line on trim always comes back to the old addage that works very well. "NOSE, POWER, TRIM"
Dudley Henriques

[DC3]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmY5Twf7KVY[/youtube]

There are a lot of things I would like to correct in this video (for example the over correcting I am doing), but it does show successful final approach speeds for the landing. On the second landing I sunk below the VASI but I knew I would make the runway and land before the two big white stripes so I didn't sweat it.

Anyway learn from my mistakes, and from the things I did right also. You can see the trim handle move occasionally as I retrim at each stage of the landing. The retrim is done after the descent rate and speed are set by the yoke and throttle.

Also, you will note, this is not a production quality video....

[Orlaam]

Also, you will note, this is not a production quality video....

God, I forgot how slow that default ATC spoke without EvP. Annoying

Good flying though!

[DC3]

... I forgot how slow that default ATC spoke without EvP ...

What is EvP?

[cristi.neagu]

EvP stands for EditvoicePack. It's a utility that adds a lot of real world callsigns, and improves ATC terminology. It also allows you to speed up ATC a bit.

[Oracle427]

EvP is essential for me as the stock FSX ATC sounds like they took some depressants.

I turn it up to max speed to make it sound more like NYC ATC and even then it isn't quite as fast as it should be.

[Orlaam]

EvP is essential for me as the stock FSX ATC sounds like they took some depressants.

I turn it up to max speed to make it sound more like NYC ATC and even then it isn't quite as fast as it should be.

Yeah I remember when the developer released it for FS9. Talk about a great moment

At least now it sounds like normal speech. The default is Quaalude city.

[DC3]

EvP stands for EditvoicePack. It's a utility that adds a lot of real world callsigns, and improves ATC terminology. It also allows you to speed up ATC a bit.

Thanks for the info!! I will investigate it.