crash at take off with C172 and C182

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flapman
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by flapman »

Can you use the Shift+4 menu after loading the A2A aircraft to check that both wing fuel tanks are full (or have equal gallons of fuel), and then try your takeoff real quick?

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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by flapman »

Nick - A2A wrote:Hi Ramon,

the rudder is centred and doesn't move at all after the aircraft leaves the ground.
I've had this exact same scenario with the A2A B-17

....turned out the autorudder turned itself back on :roll:

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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

It's possible auto-rudder could be the key here flapman. If Ramon is used to flying with this setting enabled in FSX, but it's turned-off by default in P3D, this may explain his difficulties controlling the aircraft.

Thanks,
Nick

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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by flapman »

Nick - A2A wrote:It's possible auto-rudder could be the key here flapman. If Ramon is used to flying with this setting enabled in FSX, but it's turned-off by default in P3D, this may explain his difficulties controlling the aircraft.

Thanks,
Nick
No, i'm saying the loss of rudder control once airborne is a symptom of having the autorudder engaged. I experienced this in all A2A aircraft when it was unknowingly enabled. I spent hours before finding the problem (and turning autorudder back off)

EDIT: Another symptom of having the autorudder on is a loss of nosewheel animation on the ground (for some addon aircraft.... specifically the FSLabs Concorde-X :mrgreen: )

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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

flapman wrote:No, i'm saying the loss of rudder control once airborne is a symptom of having the autorudder engaged.
However, auto-rudder will also remove the need to add any corrective manual rudder inputs to counteract torque, p-factor, gyroscopic precession and so on. That's why moving from one platform where it's enabled to another where it's not would potentially explain the behaviour being described. :wink:

Cheers,
Nick

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

I have the impression that the people do not read what I have explained before.
When I say “ what ever you do to compensate for the left turn » it means “ EVERYTHING POSSIBLE”
Generally I do not use aurorudder.
However, since nothing helped, I also tried the auto rudder but without any positive effect.
Another thing that I mentioned in the early beginning,
I also tried the other propella airplanes from Lockheed Martin without any difficulties.
The only thing that I found positive is to adjust the realism controls to medium.
With FSX I get the same effects with the control set to hard compared to the control set to medium in P3D!?
I supposed that you watched both the videos P3D versus FSX?

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Oracle427
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Oracle427 »

I have been reading the posts, but still don't see a response to Nick's question about checking for proper movement of each and every control surface in those to your inputs.

I did watch the videos and see the aircraft barely being controlled with excessive inputs in P3D. The nose is pitched up high, airspeed appears to be decaying and the aircraft ultimately stalls.

I would be looking into what is causing the erratic control inputs, and that would mean verify proper control response as Nick gas suggested. Basics first.
Last edited by Oracle427 on 08 May 2018, 16:19, edited 1 time in total.
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flapman
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by flapman »

ramonr,

I first want to thank you for posting these incredibly helpful videos, and for answering other users questions as to updates and how you load the aircraft. These are very common stumbling blocks for new users.
ramonr wrote:I supposed that you watched both the videos P3D versus FSX?
Yes. It looks like both aircraft are functioning normally, and the only difference between the safe takeoff and the accident flight are the differences in control inputs which I have observed by looking at the control positions for each aircraft. The FSX video shows proper right rudder correction applied, and the aircraft remains under control. The P3D version shows no right rudder application after takeoff, and a yawing of the aircraft consistent with the "left turning tendencies" inherent in the design. You also appear to pitch up excessively in the P3D video, which further exaggerates the left turning tendencies, while reducing your control authority (you weren't applying any anyways :) ). At the last minute you apply aggressive up elevator, which causes the aircraft to exceed critical angle of attack and stall. Since the aircraft is in uncoordinated flight with power applied, you immediately enter a violent spin to the left which continues until striking the ground.

Nothing in these videos suggests to me a serious problem with the aircraft. It does appear that the rolling motion appears slightly excessive (I don't know, I don't own the C-182) which leads me to believe that you have a fuel imbalance which is causing the heavier left wing to drop, and combined with the left turning tendency and your lack of right rudder would combine to produce a strong left roll and yaw. You've mentioned that you have no knowledge of fuel quantity, or have verified that it is loaded properly.

Nick and I have spent several posts trying to understand why one video has proper control inputs, and the other does not. Regardless the cause, the fact remains that a discrepancy exists in this area.

A joke, to help drive home that these issues are all "real to life"
The job of the flight instructor is to teach a student how to fly. 8)
The job of the student is to try and kill the flight instructor. :lol:
The 1# phrase spoken by a flight instructor to a student is "right rudder!"

These videos suggest a problem with the "seat to yoke connection."
Maintenance would report, "Ops check good, unable to duplicate on the ground" :roll:

"Flight simulation is the process of operating a virtual aeroplane in compliance with real world procedures, in a realistic atmosphere, all within a simulation environment fully compliant with the laws of geometry and dynamics. The skills learned and practiced are worth hundreds of dollars per hour in the real world. A game has only abstract rules and an abstract environment, designed for entertainment purposes. The knowledge and skills acquired in a video game are worth nothing in the real world, however entertaining they may be. It's a crucial difference."
- FsAviator, CalClassic Propliner Tutorial 2008
Last edited by flapman on 08 May 2018, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Oracle427
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Oracle427 »

The 182T is an airplane that requires a lot of right rudder input at high power and low speeds. It will turn very quickly to the left on takeoff and will roll ro the left if airborne. This video looks very realistic to me.

Great summary flapman.

Also continuing on the idea if comparing apples to apples.

Double check that the aircraft are both in perfect condition in the maintenance hangar.

Make sure they are loaded exactly the same way both fuel quantity and passenger weights.

Make sure the weather conditions are exactly the same, temp, pressure, winds, etc.

Only then can the comparison begin to be valid.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

Hi Guys, this time you will get something for your money !!! (French saying)

I have posted 4 links
the 1rst one is showing the print screens of the realism setting for FSX Hard, P3D Medium, P3D Hard and a
4th page with an interresting link showing the Cessna 182 on the same airport than the one from the videos.
2W3 Swanson runway 16.
The link is interresting to be watched for beginners.

You will see that taking off with the C182 (fsx) doesn't reprent a real problem.
you need to apply some corrections but everything goes smoothly. without having an eye on the heading, the deviation to the left is not very important (a few degrees deviation compared to the runway axis of 163°.

with P3D medium the difficulty starts and it takes some times to equilibrate the Cessna.
the heading drift to the left is more important.

With P3D Hard, it is very difficul to stabilised the airplan, the drift to the left is higher than 120°

In order to have equal "difficulties compared to FSX hard, I believe that the realism on P3D should be adjusted to 25%.
I have produced those videos having in mind the advice from Oracle 427:

Also continuing on the idea if comparing apples to apples.
Double check that the aircraft are both in perfect condition in the maintenance hangar.
Make sure they are loaded exactly the same way both fuel quantity and passenger weights.
Make sure the weather conditions are exactly the same, temp, pressure, winds, etc.
Only then can the comparison begin to be valid.


1- ppt
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8pe3fu5tgmuy ... .pptx?dl=0

2-FSX hard
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5auhh4d1q96e ... 7.MOV?dl=0

3- P3D Medium
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jwihtlnyqxw26 ... 8.MOV?dl=0

4- P3D Hard
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r2trb0atrgot8 ... 9.MOV?dl=0

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

something I forgot.
Someone could it makes the same video ?
May be Oracle427 who seems to have a lot of experiences with the C182

C183 P3D Hard (see the setting on the ppt), like new.
-Summer
-Day
-11.00
-fair weather
-Tanks, both half full
-Airport 2W3
-run way 16
-one pilot, no passenger
-no luggages

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Oracle427
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Oracle427 »

I fly a 182Q and 182T IRL very regularly. :)

To be honest, your P3D behavior seems more realistic to me if right rudder is not being applied. I would not get off the ground without going off the runway if I did not use right rudder. I also would probably not stay in the air for long if I failed to apply right rudder in the initial climb.

That said, not sure why you are seeing differences when things are configured like for like. I only use the FSX versions of the A2A aircraft.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Ramon,

Thanks for posting those additional vids. (They seem to confirm that your control surfaces are moving freely and fully.)

I also still think a large part of the reason for your difficulties is the lack of appropriate right rudder input. You still haven't mentioned how you're controlling the rudder, but am I right in guessing it's a twist handle joystick you use? Using this method of rudder input, it's pretty hard to maintain the continual controlled rudder input that's needed during take-off. (I know because I used a twist stick for years! :wink: )

In the videos you've posted, the levels of rudder input vary, but in the "P3D hard" one for example, there are just a few brief stabs of rudder input after take-off, with the rudder snapping back to its centred position between. The fact that you departed the edge of the runway is also a good clue that the rudder input is lacking. In other words, your use of the rudder isn't sufficient or consistent enough to let the aircraft to settle into a nice stable, coordinated climb. It looks as though your airspeed then bleeds off because the aircraft isn't in coordinated flight, but the stick is still being pulled back to try and force the plane to climb. In the FSX video, there seems to be less back stick pressure based on the position of the elevators, but it's quite hard to gauge the airspeed from the external view.

The only thing I can think of that might cause a significant difference in behaviour between the two sim platforms would be if your FPS in P3D was very low. It looks a little choppy from the vids, but I'd guess this isn't the issue here. However, the FSX video does look smoother in terms of FPS which may be helping you maintain control more easily.

I'm not able to record a vid at the moment, but I've done lots of take-offs in the 182 in both FSX and P3D (both with realism sliders fully right) with no appreciable difference between them in terms of handling.

Thanks,
Nick

P.S. All this with the caveat that I don't have any real world experience of piloting an aircraft! :P

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

You are right I use a twist joystick for the rudder.
I thing I will continue with fsx. At least for the Cessna!
Thanks again to all for your help
Ramon

flapman
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by flapman »

I know you don't want to fly P3D like this, but it would be an interesting experiment to see if FPS is the problem here...

Can you try turning the scenery settings to low, and fly with the realism settings on hard? Also I would suggest checking the "enable gyro drift" for enhanced realism, as it will let appropriate gauges to drift realistically.

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