A2A Skylane and Winds ?

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GrahamP
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by GrahamP »

Hi Lewis,

I've aleady tried this. Using just the default P3D weather the autopilot can handle strong winds OK but as Scott says, it doesn't produce gusting like Active Sky does.

The issue for me is that I can manage the gusting in Active Sky relatively easily when hand flying, so I'm expecting the autopilot to be able to manage it as well, although I don't know if that's a reasonable expectation or not.

Regards
Graham
Last edited by GrahamP on 14 Mar 2017, 12:26, edited 1 time in total.

Eseem
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by Eseem »

Any amount of AI traffic around? The wake turb simulation in AS is ridiculous, turning it off is paramount

GrahamP
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by GrahamP »

No, the issue with the autopilot has been en route between airports with no AI traffic nearby.

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scottb613
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by scottb613 »

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the input...

Yeah - I have wake turbulence disabled at all times...

Regards,
Scott


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Lewis - A2A
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by Lewis - A2A »

Let us know how you get on Scott, it sounds like it could be an active sky injection issue and not a P3D issue which would explain why no one else is reporting it and I cannot reproduce it.

thanks,
Lewis
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Nick - A2A
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by Nick - A2A »

I spent a bit of time today testing the performance of the KAP 140 simulation with AS16 and the current gusty conditions in the UK (i.e. EGXW 191250Z 24026G41KT 9999 SCT028 BKN032 14/07 Q1002 BLU NOSIG).

With the autopilot in HDG mode I observed much what Scott describe above when the "maximum wind shear" setting is at its default value. Apparently the simulated aileron servo response is too slow to level the wings effectively and maintain a set heading. It does a little better in ROL mode as you might expect, but the slow servo response means that it still struggles. (Try observing how slowly the yoke moves with the autopilot engaged, compared to your own manual control inputs under the same conditions.)

Not sure if A2A could adjust the autopilot PID algorithm to speed up the aileron response slightly without undesirable side-effects. Otherwise, I suggest backing off the AS16 "maximum wind shear" slider to 25 or less and also reducing turbulence as suggested above.

Scott - you mentioned earlier:
scottb613 wrote:I think I remember reading comments on the rudder changes posted in the forums - in general - with P3D - so I don't think it's user specific to me ??? Somewhere in between 3.2 and 3.4 I think Lockmart tweaked something with the way FDE's interact with the environment... I remember being shocked the first time I used the rudder after the upgrade to 3.4 with other than A2A aircraft - it seems system wide... My controls are set the same via FSUIPC - simple "min/max/center" positions... While the other A2A aircraft exhibited increased reactions to the use of the rudder - the A2A Skylane seems to be the only one giving me fits - as even the autopilot can't manage the plane...
I don't think any rudder changes in P3D are relevant as the autopilot doesn't use the rudder at all. Unless, you're 'helping' it with rudder inputs to try and centre the ball that is?

At any rate, I've got the 182 installed in both FSX-SE and P3D v3.4 and can't say I've noticed any difference in the rudder response or effectiveness. As mentioned here though, the modelled rudder is very powerful and produces a much greater roll moment than in the Pipers.

Cheers,
Nick

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some1 - A2A
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by some1 - A2A »

GrahamP wrote: The issue for me is that I can manage the gusting in Active Sky relatively easily when hand flying, so I'm expecting the autopilot to be able to manage it as well, although I don't know if that's a reasonable expectation or not.
The autopilot flies the plane using only your VSI, heading, and turn rate indicator. If you can fly the aircraft manually using only those three instruments, then hats off. ;)

Rate based autopilots in general are not very good in turbulence, add to that very strong turbulence effects simulated by ASN at default settings, and some issues are expected.
Michael Krawczyk

GrahamP
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by GrahamP »

some1 - A2A wrote: The autopilot flies the plane using only your VSI, heading, and turn rate indicator. If you can fly the aircraft manually using only those three instruments, then hats off. ;)
Good point, some1.

Interesting what you've noticed regarding the slow servo response, Nick. I guess the question there is whether the real thing is that slow?

Graham

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scottb613
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A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by scottb613 »

Hi Folks,

Yeah - without AS16 - I couldn't replicate the issue...

While AS16 may or may not exaggerate the generic turbulence - it certainly didn't feel like that was the case during my testing... It starts with a small bounce and the autopilot just overcompensates on each successive correction in ever increasing oscillations - both vertically and laterally - at the same time... While I'm not a 10,000 hour pilot and I'm certainly not an expert - I am fortunate enough to own an aircraft with an STEC-65 with an ST-360 (high end for GA) autopilot which I fly pretty regularly - and 25 knot winds with turbulence aloft will not cause that autopilot to break track - granted it's not a BK but it's still rate based... I have flown on days where my head is bouncing off the overhead and I can barely steady my hands enough to tune the radio knobs - although I don't use the autopilot when it's that rough... Real world turbulence can be quite violent - my tests in P3D I would consider light turbulance...

Nick - thanks so much for the detailed testing and analysis - at least you, Graham, and I see the issue which proves I'm not crazy - lol - maybe... Really appreciate you comparing the flight models between FSX and P3D as well... Wow - your winds were far beyond what I was testing in - I had the winds displayed on the Garmin in my screenshots if you can make it out - top left user field...

Anyway - appreciate all the responses - and Lewis (A2A) looking into this - if it can't be replicated - I guess it can't be fixed - it's still a fine plane and it doesn't happen all the time so I'll just work around it...

Have a good day folks...

Regards,
Scott




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AKar
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by AKar »

The way the turbulence is modeled in this simulator, and to my knowledge, when using AS16 as well, makes it rather difficult for the FSX/P3D autopilots to handle the bumpy weather. These are generally relatively low gain systems (to avoid annoying, very short-term oscillation in case the autopilot slightly overshoots the target and reverses its control command, again overshooting a little bit and so on). To me, it seems the turbulence is modeled as a sharp, impulse or step-like changes in wind direction affecting the entire airplane at once. Impulse response of a low-gain system necessarily causes it to be rather divergent in behavior in such conditions.

In real life, in many cases even with low gains an autopilot can, in roll particularly, rely on the airplane swimming on its own through the air, with yaw swinging likely making up a much larger part of the autopilot's sensing than an actual change in direction of flight due to turbulence. In cases where more immediate response is required (say, in pitch where the pitch command quickly couples with the speed), an acceleration sensing is used in cascade kind of controller. As an example, the vertical mode is not flown by VSI only like so, that is to say, but the vertical acceleration is sensed as an input to the immediate control response.

-Esa

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Lewis - A2A
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Re: A2A Skylane and Winds ?

Post by Lewis - A2A »

Yes as the AP programmer some1 - A2A points out this will be an AS issue and the strong turbulence and how its used in the sim, with very sudden bangs. If you turn down some as settings lower you will see the issue go away. Also if you turn of AS it will not be present.

thanks,
Lewis
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