Always Flies Left

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ballistx
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Always Flies Left

Post by ballistx »

I cannot get the PA28-180 to trim properly. It continually flies to the left. I can switch planes to the C172 and it will trim properly. Switch back to the PA28-180 and it continually drifts to the left.

I have both a 170 pilot and passenger. Have both fuel tanks full. I can put it into a mild right bank and it will straighten up and then drift off to the left.

The keypad and yoke act the same, don't work on the 180 and work on the 172.

Anybody help?

Comrade_Bob
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by Comrade_Bob »

I know my issue with drifting in the Cherokee came from forgetting to switch tanks and the weight differential causing a slight bank. From what you're saying, it sounds like you bank with full fuel tanks. Do you switch tanks after takeoff and climb out to get them back to similar levels?
Tom M.

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ballistx
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by ballistx »

No but they can't be that temperamental. Even if they were you should be able to trim it out. That is what the trim is all about. Same as with no passenger. Shorter moment arm but significant weight differential. I can fly only on left tank and it will still fly left.

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AKar
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by AKar »

There are "normal" banking tendencies in any airplane. In the simulator, due to expectations and way many controllers feel, planes are flown in a point-and-shoot way, and any banking tendencies tend to be exaggerated in how annoying they are. To determine if this is "normal" or not, I'd suggest you put the airplane in level flight the best you can, let go of everything, time 10 seconds and grab a screen. Depending on the power and speed, anything up to the range of 10 degrees would be normal in my mind.

Then there is that existing topic discussing the argument that the rudder trim in the 182 at least doesn't seem to induce dihedral effect like a direct pedal input does. This makes it difficult/impossible to trim for the banking effects using rudder trim. This would indeed be an issue in the flight model, but is something I haven't tested specifically for.

-Esa

ballistx
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by ballistx »

Just makes it difficult to make an ILS approach in IMC.

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mallcott
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by mallcott »

ballistx wrote:Just makes it difficult to make an ILS approach in IMC.
Jut makes it more realistic. The `flies-on-rails` rubbish of most FS aircraft is nothing - NOTHING - like real world flying. :wink:

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AKar
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by AKar »

ballistx wrote:Just makes it difficult to make an ILS approach in IMC.
This is where this autopilot gets handy. I do my sim flying mostly in coastal regions from PNW to Alaska, where one often goes from above the low clouds into a low layer of overcast going all the way down to 500 ft or so in rain. I find it extremely helpful to throw in either of the TRK modes to keep the airplane on the beam laterally, so I can concentrate on the vertical profile and strategic part of flying.

-Esa

Comrade_Bob
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by Comrade_Bob »

Helpful tip for those interested... (if not interested, please pass GO, and don't forget your $200), on the ILS, and most approaches for that matter, use the throttle for altitude and pitch for speed. It makes holding the glideslope easier once you get your mind around that.
Tom M.

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Scott - A2A
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by Scott - A2A »

Airplanes never fly straight. It's a constant battle to keep them flying straight. I think some get into this "sim mode" where things are expected to be artificially perfect. We all love our autopilots for long trips as a result.

Scott.
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DHenriques_
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by DHenriques_ »

Comrade_Bob wrote:Helpful tip for those interested... (if not interested, please pass GO, and don't forget your $200), on the ILS, and most approaches for that matter, use the throttle for altitude and pitch for speed. It makes holding the glideslope easier once you get your mind around that.
Here's a respectful alternate approach to this issue;


Actually the old axiom of pitch for airspeed and power for altitude is better reversed on the ILS. Using pitch for airspeed can result in a sine curve on the slope. Since the glide slope is a stable path, using power to set and control airspeed results in a much more stable approach.
You should really know the approach profile numbers for the aircraft and have it configured fairly well at the marker. That is a huge plus on the ILS.
One has to keep in mind that there is an interrelationship between pitch and power and one always affects the other. Also, rudder can be used effectively for small changes on the localizer. The key is stability.
One will also find (as far as the power/pitch argument is concerned) that the way I have just explained power vs pitch reversal on the ILS will as well be the way you set up a normal VFR landing in say a high performance jet.
We still teach power for altitude and pitch to control airspeed and you can set up a a jet fighter that way but you will notice if you ever fly these high speed jets (even in the sim), that because of the close interrelationship between power and pitch and how one affects the other simultaneously that setting up airspeed with power and controlling the sink rate on final with pitch makes the approach more stable and easier to both visualize and control.
This of course doesn't include a Naval approach where angle of attack is held constant and the approach airspeed is determined by the aircraft's gross weight during the approach.
The bottom line on the pitch/power argument is that you can do it either way. The common denominator is that no matter which way you were taught to fly the ILS, the aircraft knows only the interaction between pitch and power and that one will always require a change in the other. Catch the required changes soon enough and it is possible to make a single change without adjusting the other. As you become proficient on the ILS doing that becomes more of an option. But for the average pilot on the glide slope, in windy conditions, you can expect the interaction between pitch and power so be ready to deal with that.
Personally speaking, the power for airspeed/pitch for the slope has worked quite well for me. I have used this method as well in landing high performance jets.
"Different strokes for different folks" as they say. LOL
Dudley Henriques

ballistx
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by ballistx »

My main interest in being able to trim the airplane on the ILS is to concentrate on one thing at a time in honing the skills. It may not be realistic with the airplane but it is very hard to try and establish a relationship between the pitch/power aspect of the glide slope when you cannot divert more than 3 seconds away from the track without being 5 degrees off course. Then when you try and bring it back it doesn't want to recover so you spend 15 seconds trying to get it back on track and then you are off on the glide slope.

The only real option is to use the autopilot to track and concentrate on the glide slope until that is practiced and then do without the autopilot.

My real question was why, in level flight I could not, under any situation, get the plane to drift to the right with either the aileron or rudder trim. That indicates that the trim aspect is not correct for the airplane. The 172 will trim nicely in either direction while the 180 will not.

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Oracle427
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Re: Always Flies Left

Post by Oracle427 »

It makes little sense to train to use an ILS without a proper instrument scan. You are training and reinforcing bad habits that will then have to be unlearned to include more indications in the scan. Make lots of small corrections early before big corrections need to be made. Keep the eyes moving around from one instrument to the next.

I can't comment on the left banking issue as I do not share this problem. I would recommend re-calibrating all controls and ensuring that are set to max sensitivity with no null zones. If I took my hands off an airplane while flying for more than a few seconds, I would expect it to eventually drift off course or make some altitude deviations. There are so many factors that influence the stability, but I wouldn't trust a plane to remain "steady" without the use of an autopilot for more than a few seconds.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
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