Slow Aileron Response - C172 - SOLVED

Post any technical issues here. This forum gets priority from our staff.
new reply
User avatar
RMM
Airman First Class
Posts: 74
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 17:49

Slow Aileron Response - C172 - SOLVED

Post by RMM »

I fly the A2A C172 with an IrisDynamics FFB Yoke, FS-Force, P3D v3.4, Saitek Throttel Quadrant, Saitek Cessna Trim Wheel. I do not use FSUIPC.
Preparing to resume real world training, so realism is important.

A CFI was flying my sim and we both agreed the aileron response in bank is very slow. Should be more responsive, or more "snappy" to enter the bank. Instead there is a very slow response and a long time is required to enter a 30 degree bank in the pattern.

We are advised in FS-Force to not use "Aileron Remapping" as the A2A C172 is taking care of this. Nonetheless, I checked this box. The response is quite fast, but the yoke in VC does not match the physical yoke and movement is VERY exaggerated both in speed and amount of deflection. This makes steep turns impossible to control.

QUESTION - How to increase aileron response? Anything I have missed that can do this?

thanks
RMM - Guam
Last edited by RMM on 18 Nov 2017, 10:57, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3916
Joined: 02 Sep 2013, 19:30
Location: 3N6
Contact:

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by Oracle427 »

Do you have specific tests both real world and in sim to compare to?

Exactly how much yoke input was applied and how quickly did the real world and sim example achieve a specific bank angle? It would be very helpful to compare roll rates using a GoPro recording. If I were going to do this test I would ensure that fuel loadings, weather conditions and weight and balance are the same. I would then set a target airspeed at or below Va and proceed to execute a series of coordinated roll inputs left and right with about 50% roll input in alternating directions without hesitation for at least 10 cycles. Capture all that on a GoPro and it should provide enough information to determine if performance is performance is somehow off.

This also happens to be a fun little exercise I do in any plane I am flying to get a feel for the coordination required between aileron and rudder input. I pick a point far away on the horizon and roll left and right several times while making sure it remains fixed in place. If I can keep it there I have a decent feel for the aircraft at that airspeed.

The A2A simulator is modeled after a RW 172R. What is the RW version you are using?

I have never compared this parameter in the sim with the 172N or 172SP I fly, though I never felt it to be off. I would recommend removing all nulls zones by setting them to zero and setting sensitivity to max on all axes. I would also disregard the control movement in the VC and focus on the results in the sim against your physical yoke inputs.

The reason I say this is because I initially raised concerns about some areas of the performance the A2A 172 when it first was released. A2A pointed out that they did extensive testing using video and other data to ensure the sim was very accurate. I decided to conduct my own tests in a 172N and lo and behold I found that my memory was wrong and the sim was correct!

It's tough to make any changes based on anecdotal evidence such as something feeling more or less responsive.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

User avatar
RMM
Airman First Class
Posts: 74
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 17:49

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by RMM »

Thanks for the well considered reply. I understand how exhaustive the efforts were to match the real world aircraft in all respects. Cannot express sufficiently my enormous respect for the A2A developers.

All sensitivities are at Maximum. Null Zones at only 1. I learned to do this based on careful study of other posts. Sorry I did not mention this right away.
At present there is very close match between the VC yoke and my physical movements of the IrisDynamics Yoke.

Passage of a certain amount of time to achieve an angle of the glare shield with the horizon is not a subjective measure. To achieve that bank in less time can be achieved, but only by exaggerated, unrealistic control inputs.

Beyond this, any other means, with any setting, to increase roll rate of the aircraft? Just thinking that I may have missed something.

RMM

User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3916
Joined: 02 Sep 2013, 19:30
Location: 3N6
Contact:

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by Oracle427 »

It is subjective if we don't have actual times to compare to. I don't have timings myself so can only rely on my memory and I've learned not to trust it. Do you have an actual validated number in mind for the roll rate?

I don't believe there is any other way to influence the responsiveness of yoke inputs. I don't use FSUIPC, but I believe you said you do. Not sure if that can introduce any issues. I would not make any attempt to configure the system in such a way as to have your physical yoke match up with the virtual yoke. That will lead to trouble. To the best of my knowledge the virtual yoke moves in a more exaggerated fashion and reaches the stop of travel earlier than my joystick does. In other words, ignore the virtual yoke.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

User avatar
RMM
Airman First Class
Posts: 74
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 17:49

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by RMM »

Understood.
I have not made any direct attempt to match VC yoke with the Physical Yoke sim device, other that the Sensitivity and null zones already discussed.
FS-Force is a loading factor felt in force feedback as a % of total available in the device. FS-Force does not interfere with or modify the flight model.
As per my earlier post, I do not use FSUIPC.
Thanks for the careful replies.
RMM

User avatar
Nick - A2A
A2A Captain
Posts: 13734
Joined: 06 Jun 2014, 13:06
Location: UK

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by Nick - A2A »

Interesting discussion. :) RMM - I do agree with Oracle's point that unless you can quantify the slow aileron response you're reporting, it's difficult to tell if there's a problem (perhaps hardware-induced by the sophisticated yoke) or if it's more of a 'perception thing'.

For instance I just did a quick and rather unscientific test in the A2A 172 and using what I'd consider to be my 'normal' control input for entering a standard rate turn (perhaps 1/3 of stick deflection - cheap TM.16000m in my case), it took about 2 seconds from wings level to a bank angle of 16° or so (airspeed was around VA). How does this compare with what you're seeing?

One advantage of the sim is that we can extend the testing into areas that we couldn't (or at least shouldn't) in the real aircraft. In other words, prohibited manoeuvres can be attempted and I found that an aileron roll in the A2A 172 took about 9 seconds, so that gives us a reference roll rate of some 40° per second.

Afraid I don't have any real world piloting experience for comparison unlike Oracle and many others here, but could you try and replicate the above tests (in the sim!) and see how your numbers compare? If you're seeing results which are markedly different, perhaps try plugging in a standard joystick or yoke if you still have access to one, and see if the issue persists.

Cheers,
Nick

User avatar
RMM
Airman First Class
Posts: 74
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 17:49

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by RMM »

Hello Nick..

Very welcome thoughts.

I can ask the CFI's at my flight school to do this test. Very easy. Count the seconds to a given degree of bank. 20/30/45 are easy to set on the Attitude Indicator.
Of course, that assumes the yoke is moved quite briskly. Will discuss with them and report back. Should not be a huge variation between models, as we are using 1,000 - 1 , 1,000 - 2 etc to count. The variation should be quite acceptable say between a 172P and a 172R. Then will do the same in my flight sim.

Today I was practicing steep turns (45 degrees). My overall impression was that the sim is quite accurate based on my recollections of this maneuver.

But this rate of entry to the desired bank is my question and you have proposed a good test that is easy to conduct.

Let me inquire and test some more. Will advise in a few days.

thanks!
RMM

User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3916
Joined: 02 Sep 2013, 19:30
Location: 3N6
Contact:

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by Oracle427 »

Make sure that all parameters are the same.

Loading, airspeed, altitude, atmospheric conditions. Not sure how much of a difference it will make, but it could alter the test results. A 172 flown in the winter feels like a fighter jet compared to how it handles in the summer.

Collect ideas for test approaches
Collect data for comparison
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

User avatar
Lewis - A2A
A2A Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 33284
Joined: 06 Nov 2004, 23:22
Location: Norfolk UK
Contact:

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172

Post by Lewis - A2A »

The issue here might be the hardware. Do you have another joystick or standard yoke to test with that isn't force feedback or anything like that? FF isn't natively supported in FS so has been known to cause issues and could certainly make the perceived flight model change.

The Simulation it should be noted is a 172R.

thanks,
Lewis
A2A Facebook for news live to your social media newsfeed
A2A Youtube because a video can say a thousand screenshots,..
A2A Simulations Twitter for news live to your social media newsfeed
A2A Simulations Community Discord for voice/text chat

User avatar
RMM
Airman First Class
Posts: 74
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 17:49

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172 - SOLVED

Post by RMM »

Hello Lewis..
THANKS!
That is a very important insight. I do have a CH Eclipse Yoke. But I don't want to take time to set it up. A friend wants to buy it. So we can compare later.

Actually, I think this topic is now at a point of closure. I don't think and never said or even implied that there was a problem with the A2A C172. That said... My perceptions and that of a Navy pilot / CFI / Cessna Pilot are not illusions. Your point about my FFB - IrisDynamics yoke affecting the flight model is probably correct.

My main query was actually very simple.... Was there some setting that I missed that could adjust roll rate? Answer is clear.. No.

So like my last problem, that you and Nick helped resolve, this is most likely or even surely a case of my hardware. I will label the topic as solved.

So far, I have gotten my pattern work into fair shape, landings are consistent albeit not perfectly on the center-line, 30 degree turns are solid, 45 degree turns are acceptable but need work on altitude...AND....Tomorrow - I will tackle power off and power on stalls.

All that thanks to A2A and a great aircraft! I am quite confident now that I will be ready and capable when I resume my real world training.

RMM - Guam

User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3916
Joined: 02 Sep 2013, 19:30
Location: 3N6
Contact:

Re: Slow Aileron Response - C172 - SOLVED

Post by Oracle427 »

Well, I'm not seeing this as a slight on A2A or trying to jump to their defense. If there is a genuine issue, I like to do analysis out of my own curiosity and I'm sure A2A would appreciate any well qualified feedback.

This is the reason why I asked about trying to build up actual measurements so that they can be compared. I would have tried to do some RW measurements myself, but the weather was crappy today. :(

I still intend to measure this in RL at some point in the near future.

I performed a test in the A2A sim just now using FSX.

Clear weather (15C, no winds, 29.92 in HG)
150 lbs pilot no pax
30 gals of fuel (15 in each tank)

Prompt take off and climb to 3000 feet.
I used the Davtron timer on the panel to time my manuevers.
Trim for 100 KIAS and perform an aileron roll to the right and left (6 seconds total for each one) Aileron roll using FULL deflection
Trim for 120 KIAS and perform an aileron roll to the right and left (6 seconds total for each one) Aileron roll using FULL deflection
Trim to 60 KIAS and performed an aileron roll to the right and left (8 seconds total for each one) Aileron roll using FULL deflection

Trim for 60 KIAS and perform 10 alternating coordinated banks (5 banks to each side) to 30 degrees with half aileron deflection. No hesitation when reversing bank. (25 seconds total time)

Below is the test I intend to perform IRL.
Trim for 90 KIAS and perform 10 alternating coordinated banks (5 banks to each side) to 30 degrees with half aileron deflection. No hesitation when reversing bank. (18 seconds total time)

The roll rate appears to be 60 degrees per second at around cruising speed and 45 deg/sec at 60 KIAS.
The timings for the 10 alternating rolls to 30 degrees bank equate to 30 deg/sec at 90 KIAS. Half aileron input resulted in half rate, I guess that makes sense...
The timings for the same at 60 KIAS result in a roll rate of 21.6 deg/sec or very close to half of the 45 deg/sec I saw when doing the aileron roll. At least it is consistent.

I did look at the virtual yoke in the cockpit while doing these maneuvers and I have to say that it was not accurate when compared to my physical inputs.

I did the test using the S style prop.

The following document includes some NASA test data performed using a Cardinal. I suspect the roll rates will be similar to a 172 though the Cardinal has a larger and heavier cantilever wing. I imagine that might detract from roll performance. Roll data on Pages 18-22. The numbers aren't too far off from my sim results.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 006639.pdf
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

new reply

Return to “C172 Trainer Tech Support”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests