Another Aircraft Rolls to the right - with a twist

[Still Learning]

I understand why this is happening, p-factor and torque, and if I'm entirely mistaken, will create adverse yaw. Got it.

My question is, how is this issue managed in the cockpit? (so you can fly a constant heading, for example...)

Thanks in advance,

Still Learning

[Lewis - A2A]

Auto pilots essentially.

But for hand flying it is 100% the same as driving a car, you simply adjust and fly the plane, or drive the car and don't let it drive you. Put it this way, no matter how straight or smooth the road we don't drive cars around without our hands on the wheel.

thanks,
Lewis

[DHenriques_]

Auto pilots essentially.

But for hand flying it is 100% the same as driving a car, you simply adjust and fly the plane, or drive the car and don't let it drive you. Put it this way, no matter how straight or smooth the road we don't drive cars around without our hands on the wheel.

thanks,
Lewis

Analogy I used many times with new student pilots;

Patient to Doctor; "It hurts when I do this."
Doctor to Patient; "Don't do that."

DH

[mallcott]

I understand why this is happening, p-factor and torque, and if I'm entirely mistaken, will create adverse yaw. Got it.

My question is, how is this issue managed in the cockpit? (so you can fly a constant heading, for example...)

Thanks in advance,

Still Learning

Picking up on Dudleys advice:

Fix it so it doesn't.

Aircraft are trimmed not only by pilot adjustable tabs but also by rigging the aircraft. The Engineer can be asked to set the aircraft for a suitable phase of flight - normally cruise so that the combination of cruise power, p-factor and torque is naturally trimmed out.

If you have a badly rigged aircraft then it's far more difficult to trim.

[Still Learning]

There's a rudder trim tab on the Cessna 172? I wasn't aware of that...

Interestingly enough, I asked a flight instructor, my original question, and he said you have to use the rudder pedals to maintain a heading in the 172.

I would use the a/p but "Country Flyboy" on YT brings up a good point. "You shouldn't ask the a/p to do something the pilot, can't do.It's there aid in the work flow. It's not supposed to be used as a crutch. "

I agree, because, prior to the purchase of my A2A 172, I was guilty of doing just that - using the a/p as a crutch, and my nascent skills, suffered for it.


Still Learning

[mallcott]

There's a rudder trim tab on the Cessna 172? I wasn't aware of that...

Interestingly enough, I asked a flight instructor, my original question, and he said you have to use the rudder pedals to maintain a heading in the 172.

I would use the a/p but "Country Flyboy" on YT brings up a good point. "You shouldn't ask the a/p to do something the pilot, can't do.It's there aid in the work flow. It's not supposed to be used as a crutch. "

I agree, because, prior to the purchase of my A2A 172, I was guilty of doing just that - using the a/p as a crutch, and my nascent skills, suffered for it.


Still Learning

The 172 does have a rudder trim tab, just not a pilot-adjustable one, Ground adjust only. Cant recall whether that is adjustable on the A2A bird,

[Tomas Linnet]

it is not adjustable, but i think it is possible to use the default FSX rudder trim. Note the default rudder trim also can be the source of the problem.

[Still Learning]

So then, If I can't trim the adverse yaw, would it be correct to say I'm pushing (rudder) pedals for the entire flight to compensate for the adverse yaw? And that theoretically would keep me going on one heading at a time.

About that theoretical thing - probably in practice too; but I need lots of that.

Still Learning

[Oracle427]

Adverse yaw is a reaction to the unequal drag forces generated by the deflected ailerons in each wing when banking. As soon as the ailerons are returned to the neutral position, they're is no more adverse yaw.

To keep things simple, we won't talk about intentional uncoordinated flight. The rudder is used to maintain coordination which is visually verified by keeping the ball centered in the slip/skid indicator.

This has nothing to do with heading.

The rudder is used to maintain coordination, that's it.

Turn the airplane to the correct heading and keep it coordinated while doing so, and you're all set to go.

In practice this means that you need to learn how to use your hands and feet together to maneuver the aircraft all the while keeping it coordinated. It takes practice, lots of practice.

[Still Learning]

Apologies for the misuse of terms, holding true to my user name. So then, If I'm flying along, with wind and p-factor and torque, say 090; and the DG is drifting to say 060, then all I do, is add rudder to prevent the a/c from going off course? (because of p-factor and torque.) at least. I thought that is what you were saying.

Still Learning

[flapman]

Apologies for the misuse of terms, holding true to my user name. So then, If I'm flying along, with wind and p-factor and torque, say 090; and the DG is drifting to say 060, then all I do, is add rudder to prevent the a/c from going off course? (because of p-factor and torque.) at least. I thought that is what you were saying.

Still Learning

Don't use your DG for this adjustment, the primary instrument for determining coordination is the Inclinometer. "Step on the ball."

Ball right = add more right rudder/reduce left rudder.
Ball left = add left rudder/reduce right rudder.

[Oracle427]

If you are not on course, you need to turn and get back on course. It is not an either/or situation between using the ailerons and rudder. You will need to use both and use them in coordination.

While in the air the rudder is used to maintain coordination as noted in the diagram provided by flapman.

There are some exceptions to this such as performing slips, but that is not relevant right now.

P-Factor and torque are primarily issues at high power settings and high angles of attack such as in slow flight. This is a situation encountered during takeoff or when performing a go-around. Again the rudder is used exactly the same way to maintain coordination. This has absolutely nothing to do with heading or course. The rudder is used to maintain the ball in the center.

When the aircraft is uncoordinated, it is flying through the air sideways. This is inefficient and additionally can lead to a spin if the aircraft is stalled while uncoordinated. A skid is a situation where too much rudder is applied in the direction of the turn. The ball will head to the outside of the turn in a skid. A slip is a situation where the rudder is applied toward the outside of the turn. The ball will head toward the inside of the turn. Again, nothing at all to do with heading or course. Once you get the hang of it, there is no need to take more than a quick glance at the slip/skin indicator to confirm you are coordinated in visual conditions. Once you get to know the aircraft you'll know exactly how much rudder to apply to remain coordinated as you make turns, climb at high power, go around, etc.

[DHenriques_]

Apologies for the misuse of terms, holding true to my user name. So then, If I'm flying along, with wind and p-factor and torque, say 090; and the DG is drifting to say 060, then all I do, is add rudder to prevent the a/c from going off course? (because of p-factor and torque.) at least. I thought that is what you were saying.

Still Learning

Well.....you are making a few false assumptions here so let's begin with that.
First of all, what Oracle said above is correct. You virtually NEVER want to be using rudder to correct for heading. I'll make one caveat on that and that would apply only to an ILS application for very MINUTE changes on the localizer, but that's another ball game entirely.
In level cruise flight you have very little P Factor. The thing to understand about P Factor is that it is only present when there is an angular difference between the relative wind and the propeller arc. In level flight there has to be at least a little positive angle of attack on the wing so there is some torque in play but note here that torque is at least partially corrected for by engine and vertical stabilizer offset that's built into the aircraft for you by the manufacturer.
Basically what I'm saying here is that in the modern airplane, the manufacturer sets the aircraft up during the manufacturing process to be as stable as possible when in cruise flight using cruise power settings so much of the work involved with trimming out the aircraft has already been done for you. In a lot of GA type light aircraft such as the 172, the manufacturer puts a small fixed tab on the rudder that can be offset on the ground to "fine tune" a specific aircraft getting it even closer to a perfect yaw trim in level flight cruise. Heavier more complex airplanes have adjustable rudder trim in the cockpit. Some have aileron trim. Depends on the complexity of the plane and it's power plant.
Getting down to your specific problem, to maintain a heading...........ANY heading, you use coordinated controls to correct for wind finding the exact offset heading that will maintain your DESIRED heading then you maintain that heading in LEVEL COORDINATED FLIGHT. You should NEVER find yourself holding rudder to accomplish this. If you do find you are holding rudder, ADJUST THE HEADING then go back to level flight once more.
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley Henriques

[Still Learning]

As I understand it then, then the way to get back on course is via a coordinated turn, which comprises the ailerons and rudder working together in harmony, keeping "the ball" in the center all the while...

Would it be worth getting an E-6B to help with the WCA?

(I have the rate at which the weather changes over time set to Low.) I'm also beginning to think that it's the wind that is blowing me off course...

Still Learning

[DHenriques_]

As I understand it then, then the way to get back on course is via a coordinated turn, which comprises the ailerons and rudder working together in harmony, keeping "the ball" in the center all the while...

Would it be worth getting an E-6B to help with the WCA?

(I have the rate at which the weather changes over time set to Low.) I'm also beginning to think that it's the wind that is blowing me off course...

Still Learning

Generally speaking, an E6B and other like whiz wheels are tools used during pre-flight PLANNING to establish an initial dead reckoning solution correcting for wind to arrive at a final compass heading to fly that in THEORY and from your figures will make good your true course.
Once in flight, further correction is made for wind as pilotage indicates that correction is required. This naturally is a VFR condition combining dead reckoning and pilotage.
Over time using FSX I have more or less discovered that when flying VFR I use Navaids to good advantage. You need absolutely correct scenery to use pilotage accurately. You can of course make use of large geographical visuals but fine tuning pilotage even using scenery like Ultimate Terrain can be iffy where TOTALLY accurate pilotage is concerned.
I strongly suggest you learn to integrate your avionics into your flight VFR flight planning to achieve the best result for your navigation VFR point A to point B.
Dudley Henriques