Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

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JonasBecsan
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Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by JonasBecsan »

Hi.

I'm new to the forum!

I have really enjoyed the A2A 172 Trainer since I bought it, however, recently I've had some issues with the rudder. For some reason the aircraft seem to coordinate turns on its own. Autorudder in FSX is turned off. I have no idea why this is happening. The turn coordinator moves to the center no matter how hard I bank. I can see viusally that the aircraft is indeed coordinating the turn so it's not an issue with the turn coordinator itself. The plane is simply turning the rudder in flight without any control input from my side.

My setup:
FSX Steam Edition
A2A 172 Trainer (Updated to newest patch)
Saitek Pro Flight Cessna Yoke
Saitek Pro Flight Cessna Rudder Pedals
Saitek Pro Flight Cessna Trim Wheel
Saitek Pro Flight Throttle Quadrant

Hope there is a quick way to fix this. Sorry if this has been brought up before, I've searched the web, but couldn't find a solution. :)

Caldemeyn
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Caldemeyn »

Hi

Is the fsx updated through steam ? What are your realism settings ? How are your controls configured ? Any addons installed? I recall that fsuipc had a yaw damper feature, at least i think so, check it too if you have it.

Does the ball move at all during turning or power changes ? How are you starting the autopilot if at all? When checking, unplug all the controls and look if that changes anything.

JonasBecsan
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by JonasBecsan »

Hi

Is the fsx updated through steam ? What are your realism settings ? How are your controls configured ? Any addons installed? I recall that fsuipc had a yaw damper feature, at least i think so, check it too if you have it.

Does the ball move at all during turning or power changes ? How are you starting the autopilot if at all? When checking, unplug all the controls and look if that changes anything.
Hi,

FSX is indeed updated through steam. I've attached a screenshot from my realism settings. Image
The only addons I have installed are the A2A Cessna 172 Trainer and FTX Trees HD. I'm not using fsuipc as I've heard it's not getting along with A2A's 172. Can anyone confirm this?

The ball moves as it should. It doesn't stay dead center when you turn, but moves into center as if you were coordinating the turn (Which I'm not.) I never use the autopilot. Is it a possibility that I have touched it by a mistake and that's causing this? Unplugging the controls does not resolve the issue. The aircraft is still coordinating its turns.

Caldemeyn
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Joined: 01 Feb 2011, 11:21
Location: Poland

Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Caldemeyn »

Maybe try flying with avionics turned off, to see if its not related, then check if a default fsx autopilot is not working, does the rudder move by itself ?

Maybe you expect too much tendency for uncoordinated flight from this plane ? Most of the time its not really all that visible, it might require only light taps of the rudder during turns, it will be mostly recentered after a time during a turn.

Does it coordinate itself during a climb at somewhere between 70 -60kts and full throttle ? If so, then that would be strange.

JonasBecsan
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by JonasBecsan »

Caldemeyn wrote:Maybe try flying with avionics turned off, to see if its not related, then check if a default fsx autopilot is not working, does the rudder move by itself ?

Maybe you expect too much tendency for uncoordinated flight from this plane ? Most of the time its not really all that visible, it might require only light taps of the rudder during turns, it will be mostly recentered after a time during a turn.

Does it coordinate itself during a climb at somewhere between 70 -60kts and full throttle ? If so, then that would be strange.
Ok so as far as I can tell, it's not the autopilot. The issue does not happen when banking on a 60-70kts climb. It only happens when turning from straight and level flight, sometimes the ball moves in the opposite direction of what it's supposed to and then returning to center. Is this normal behaviour? Perhaps it's all in my head, but I can't recall this happening in the past. Usually I've had to feed in some rudder input during a turn for the ball to stay centered.

Bear with me if this is normal. I'm still training. :)

Caldemeyn
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Caldemeyn »

There were some major changes to the ball behavior in later patches, maybe you expect the older behavior while the new one is the correct one?

You say that when in a climbing turn it doesn't happen, does it happen in a straight climb ? The ball should be then displaced to the right and you would need to apply some right rudder to stay coordinated.

You can always make a vid to show this if you think that there is still a problem :)

L.A.
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by L.A. »

Ok so as far as I can tell, it's not the autopilot. The issue does not happen when banking on a 60-70kts climb. It only happens when turning from straight and level flight, sometimes the ball moves in the opposite direction of what it's supposed to and then returning to center. Is this normal behaviour? Perhaps it's all in my head, but I can't recall this happening in the past. Usually I've had to feed in some rudder input during a turn for the ball to stay centered.

Bear with me if this is normal. I'm still training. :)
The following is not specific to any aircraft. Depending on direction of turn, airspeed and power, the ball might move the other way. You won't always be turning rudder same direction as the turn. I owned a Van's RV6 with 180 HP constant speed prop. Lots of right rudder on takeoff & initial climb. For turns, it was basically feet on the floor. It used Frize ailerons which balance out yaw, in addition to differential...... for the ailerons. The Frize ailerons pivot the leading edge below the wing, as the aileron rises. Differential is more, up, than down, to reduce drag.

edit: Just noticed that some Cessnas use frize ailerons. The hinge line is located farther aft. I don't know about the 172. Was looking at the 206.

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Nick - A2A »

I've noticed the changes to the behaviour of 'the ball' following recent Accu-Sim updates. I believe that the devs are progressively customizing the coding of the inclinometer to be more realistic than its default behaviour in FSX. One thing seems clear: although it's perhaps the simplest instrument installed in an aircraft cockpit, the inclinometer seems to be one of the trickiest to model accurately in the sim. I guess this isn't surprising: that little ball is a slave of pure classical mechanics / Newtonian physics after all. :)

I can't really comment on its realism having neither experience of real flying, or a background in all that Newtonian stuff. :mrgreen: However, it seems pretty good to me: once in a turn I can more-or-less maintain a coordinated turn without any rudder input. (Which suits me with my twisty joystick! :roll: )

One that note, the subject of whether rudder input is needed throughout a turn and whether to lead turns with aileron or rudder is one I've seen discussed before in the aviation community. Here's an example which might be helpful: PPRuNE - Use of rudder in turns. There's no simple answer it seems (as usually seems to be the case with these things. :mrgreen: )

Cheers,
Nick
A2A Simulations Inc.

JonasBecsan
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by JonasBecsan »

Ok, so seems like I'm just not used to the new ball beahaviour in the patch. (I updated two the newest patch not too long ago.)

Nevertheless, I recorded a video to test so you can see for yourself. Seems like there is no issue though. :)

https://youtu.be/HdNHPLrAj8w

Sorry about my crappy mic. :)

Caldemeyn
Master Sergeant
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Joined: 01 Feb 2011, 11:21
Location: Poland

Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Caldemeyn »

Yup, this is normal, the plane will tend to straigten itself in level turns, you just need some rudder when starting and exiting the turn to ease into it. As always it will depend on attitude and power settings.

In real planes it can be an issue of correct rigging, some planes, when miss-rigged, can ask for quite different inputs.
A2A simulates a well rigged plane.

JonasBecsan
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by JonasBecsan »

Caldemeyn wrote:Yup, this is normal, the plane will tend to straigten itself in level turns, you just need some rudder when starting and exiting the turn to ease into it. As always it will depend on attitude and power settings.

In real planes it can be an issue of correct rigging, some planes, when miss-rigged, can ask for quite different inputs.
A2A simulates a well rigged plane.
Got it! Thanks for clarifying. :)

Thanks for the tips guys!

Gabe777
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Gabe777 »

Just found this post I.

know it's old but I have just posted elsewhere about a similar issue in p3d.

I too am finding that in straight and level flight at a constant speed if I then turn the aircraft up to the standard rate turn angle, there is almost an automatic rudder coordination occurring.

The only time I need to import rudder control manually is if I enter a very steep turn or if I am climbing and / or accelerating.

Very interesting: it is clearly the fact that the Piper Comanche is a unique aircraft, and is modelled very well.
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Caldemeyn
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Location: Poland

Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Caldemeyn »

This is mostly due to adverse yaw being present when ailerons are deflected, it more or less dissappears when you are established in a turn.

Gabe777
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Gabe777 »

Caldemeyn wrote:This is mostly due to adverse yaw being present when ailerons are deflected, it more or less dissappears when you are established in a turn.
Aha ! A reason.

You see that's why I can barely spell Fisiks ... ! Lol.

Well it certainly explains why on default aircraft I have to use a constant and steady amount of predictable rudder input for the entire turn, whereas with the Comanche I only need a small amount of rudder at the start of a turn ... and then if I keep the same amount of Rudder deflection, then I tend to find the ball flies around all over the place ! So yes I agree, it is clearly the fact that only a small amount of rudder input is required at the start of a turn and only then, really, if it is a steep turn.

I should really read up on this stuff. It is pretty good.

Thnx.
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Tomas Linnet
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Re: Weird Rudder Problem (Autorudder off)

Post by Tomas Linnet »

And remember, a good pilot is always learning :wink:

Yes, I stole that line from YouTube, as I'm sure some of you will know....
Kind Regards
Tomas

Sim: FSX SE
Accu-Sim aircraft in my hangar:
C172, C182, P51 Civ, P51 Mil, B17, Spitfire, P47, B377 COTS,
J3 Cub, T6, Connie, P-40, V35B
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