Request: Add "Door opening in flight" Failure?

[BabtridgeMcJoystick]

Hi

I've been seeing a few videos on youtube lately where student pilots have doors opening on them, which is apparently quite common in some cessna's. The one's I have seen appear to be 152's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZmCLSaOW30
https://youtu.be/LzCpCmMuNJg?t=8m1s

In the second, note the instructor's response - "That happens"

Is this common with 172's, and is it something I might one day stumble upon in the A2A should I choose to let it 'age gracefully'? If not, would you consider putting it in for a little mischief?

[Oracle427]

It is common on the older door hinge designs pre 172R and 182R models. The older door hinges had a ratchet that engages the bolt when the door is pulled closed and it will hold the door closed even when the handle on the inside is not pushed forward to lock the door.

If the handle is not pushed forward the bolt will be partially extended and not extended into the frame of the airplane therefore positively locking the door. This can result in the door popping open in flight as vibration, strong suction and some flexing of the airframe take place in flight.

I've never had a door pop open in flight as I always check for handles locked and doors closed against the frame before takeoff. I have been once surprised by a passenger opening a window in cruise. That was loud and quite a surprise and their yelp or surprise was even more distracting as they lost their grip on the latch when the airflow sucked the window outwards. I can only imagine how much of a racket a cabin door popping open can make.

[BabtridgeMcJoystick]

Howdy Oracle 427, thanks for the reply!

So its kind of a rookie error if this happens to you? Sounds about right - the only time I've had bad stuff happen to me in sim (read: flap failure. That was very exciting especially as I was wearing a VR headset at the time) is when I fail to do my walkround. I would quite like to see door locking check be included. For anyone training in real life, it might even be something that prevents them losing a phone or worse - and maybe some poor guy getting an "iphone7 from heaven"....

What do you think? Pointless frippery / bloat, or useful inclusion?

So did you consider putting some nice new air ducts in after your scrape with ventilation hungry passengers?

[bobsk8]

It is common on the older door hinge designs pre 172R and 182R models. The older door hinges had a ratchet that engages the bolt when the door is pulled closed and it will hold the door closed even when the handle on the inside is not pushed forward to lock the door.

If the handle is not pushed forward the bolt will be partially extended and not extended into the frame of the airplane therefore positively locking the door. This can result in the door popping open in flight as vibration, strong suction and some flexing of the airframe take place in flight.

I've never had a door pop open in flight as I always check for handles locked and doors closed against the frame before takeoff. I have been once surprised by a passenger opening a window in cruise. That was loud and quite a surprise and their yelp or surprise was even more distracting as they lost their grip on the latch when the airflow sucked the window outwards. I can only imagine how much of a racket a cabin door popping open can make.

My instructor, prior to solo, popped the door open on me just after rotation. Made a heckuva racket.

[Oracle427]

If the door popped open I doubt it would open much at all, I doubt a smart phone would be able to slip through at flying airspeed.

I'm not really sure about adding this as a distraction, I doubt it would have the same affect as you don't have the air movement, pressure drop hitting your eardrums and potentially trying to lean over and while losing control to contend with...

Iphones raining down from heaven? You mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEF7s5tKXpA

[Mickel]

I've had an old 152 door pop open on me on take off. It can't go far. The air flow keeps it shut. Nudge it out and give it a good slam to solve the problem. The lock in the A2A 172 is a different, much more positive locking mechanism. Pretty certain if the latch is hard down the door can't even be opened from the outside (not, I must confess, that I have tried).

[BabtridgeMcJoystick]

My instructor, prior to solo, popped the door open on me just after rotation. Made a heckuva racket.

Those guys love to throw little tests at you. I hear a common one is to try and get you distracted by a really enthusiastic conversation on your favourite topic when you are on final to see if you will bite. Reminds me of my old driving instructor, Fred. He was in his 70's and had this great voice, UK cockney and tonally milquetoasty but completely confident and firm, as senior citizens of our fair isle tend to be We'd be driving along and he'd go "Cor, look at those gorgeous girls over there, phwoar aren't they nice" in a completely unconvincing attempt at acting to see if I would look and take my eyes off he road. It never worked as I knew what he was doing, but it did distract me by making me burst out laughing.

Fred was great. I miss Fred.

[BabtridgeMcJoystick]

If the door popped open I doubt it would open much at all, I doubt a smart phone would be able to slip through at flying airspeed.

I'm not really sure about adding this as a distraction, I doubt it would have the same affect as you don't have the air movement, pressure drop hitting your eardrums and potentially trying to lean over and while losing control to contend with...

Iphones raining down from heaven? You mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEF7s5tKXpA

I remember that episode! Yeah she was pretty lucky with that phone, and not hitting anyone. And being able to explain why it was there!

Agreed on the effects part of the door. My thinking was, as the instructor in that video mentioned its actually caused accidents because students are so surprised, it would be neat to have it in the A2A stuff to learn. But then we don't get a handy instructor in the A2A and are maybe more likely to just go close it because its a sim? Oh well

[BabtridgeMcJoystick]

I've had an old 152 door pop open on me on take off. It can't go far. The air flow keeps it shut. Nudge it out and give it a good slam to solve the problem. The lock in the A2A 172 is a different, much more positive locking mechanism. Pretty certain if the latch is hard down the door can't even be opened from the outside (not, I must confess, that I have tried).

Reassuring to hear. The doors on the 172N I was learning in for a bit looked flimsy as!

[DHenriques_]

Hi

I've been seeing a few videos on youtube lately where student pilots have doors opening on them, which is apparently quite common in some cessna's. The one's I have seen appear to be 152's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZmCLSaOW30
https://youtu.be/LzCpCmMuNJg?t=8m1s

In the second, note the instructor's response - "That happens"

Is this common with 172's, and is it something I might one day stumble upon in the A2A should I choose to let it 'age gracefully'? If not, would you consider putting it in for a little mischief?

It's common enough especially in Cessnas and some Pipers that I'd always reach over and check the door security myself when giving dual. If it happens it's not a big deal really although some pilots have reported their heart stopped for a moment when it happened.
You just slow the bird down, grab the door and shut it. It never opens very far; just "pops open a bit".
Dudley Henriques

[Great Ozzie]

Yes Dudley... I had it happen once just after takeoff in a Bonanza - and it was "surprising" as in "are the wings still attached?" No way for me to shut that one inflight (alone in the left seat).

As Dudley said, in reality it's not a big deal. But you will hear stories of people driving the airplane into the ground because they failed to "fly the airplane first" - instead, they were focused on getting that door shut.

It could be failure to check the door adequately was the reason - but wear and tear (old worn hardware) can cause problems too.

-Rob

[DHenriques_]

Yes Dudley... I had it happen once just after takeoff in a Bonanza - and it was "surprising" as in "are the wings still attached?" No way for me to shut that one inflight (alone in the left seat).

As Dudley said, in reality it's not a big deal. But you will hear stories of people driving the airplane into the ground because they failed to "fly the airplane first" - instead, they were focused on getting that door shut.

It could be failure to check the door adequately was the reason - but wear and tear (old worn hardware) can cause problems too.

-Rob

That's true. The old 150 Cessna was especially susceptible to the door opening due to worn latches. I've even had the side window on the old 150 snap open due to the worn latches. They were exactly like the ones used on 50 style small front vent windows in cars. )
Really woke you up when they opened on you )
The old 150 also had a flap "johnson bar" that could wake you up on occasion if you had a sweaty palm and let go of the button if you were on the first notch of flaps. The bar would snap shut with a bang that sounded like a 45 going off in the cockpit. Pilots learned early to NEVER let go of that depressed botton on the end of the bar. )))))))
DH
DH

[Great Ozzie]

That's funny. I guess one of those things that happens once and "never again"!
-Rob

[lars667]

I'm in the process of training in a C172P, and had the door open on me when turning downwind a couple of times. During a turn the airflow will allow some opening of the door. I think we found that this was due to the key was pulled out while not in the upright position. Probably due to some worn parts. We've been a bit more careful when unlocking the door now, and haven't had it happening to me again. I am at the point where my first solo is coming up (had a solo offer last lesson, but was a bit tired after 13 landings, so I declined), and sure hope the door doesn't pop open at that point. Nothing critical, and I should be able to handle it, but this failure isprobably not very unusual for these aircrafts, but shouldn't be a cause of great concern.

[Tom_G_2010]

Just came across this thread. When I was maybe 11 I went on my first intro flight in a 152. Door unlatched about 300 feet up. It opened a bit more than some accounts above indicate, perhaps because we were still climbing so not as fast. I recall getting a fair view of the ground for a moment. The pilot reached over pulled it shut and said "That happens sometimes."

When I was 18 and started working towards my ticket my instructor told me we were going to be practicing some emergency procedures and that he had a surprise for me that would test my problem solving skills. During the hour he did introduce a few basics but nothing too difficult so I was wondering what the surprise would be. We were returning to the field, about 5 miles out flying straight and level when he got a big grin and announced his final simulated emergency.

Him: "ALL your control surfaces have jammed! What are you going to do?"
Me: "Put my head between my legs and kiss my butt good bye!" He gave me crap for that answer.
So, he asked me, How can you control your altitude? I responded throttle. Good he said.
Then has asked about heading and I was stumped. He smiled again, unlatched his door and reached across me and unlatched mine.

He then demonstrated how to make turns using the doors! Very Cool!

We actually flew about 3 miles like that making some basic turns and at one point pushing on both doors to drop some air speed. He had me resume normal control about a mile before we entered the pattern. That was a lesosn that really stuck.

I've always thought how cool it would be to be able to do the same in the sim. I do have switches on the doors of my fuselage and they do trigger the door open/close functions in the A2A 172. But it's full open or full close. I suspect it would be quie a bit of work to fake the sim out to treat the doors as control surfaces.

Just tought I'd share.