Pattern practice and Wind Correction Questions

[Still Learning]

I'm practicing my "pattern" (pasta anyone? ) If you saw my "pattern" that would be the first word to come to mind. I'm practicing out of KGRB (Green Bay, Wisconsin) as luck would have it. a) that's the general area FS Flying School DEMO version is limited to, and b) the runways there are long for the 172 anyway, and oriented North - South. (According to FSX it's 8198 ft.)

Here's the thing. Would it be helpful to fly in no wind - granted it's not realistic - but, it'd be easier. That way, I could reintroduce the wind element after having mastered holding a heading.

I do have Pedals.

I just listed to ATIS. Wind is 214@8 RWY 24 in use. How do I use that information to my advantage, to stay above the runway? Wouldn't RWY 6 be into the wind? i.e. the runway I should be using? (just curious)

Thanks in advance,

Still Learning

[DC3]

I just listed to ATIS. Wind is 214@8 RWY 24 in use. How do I use that information to my advantage, to stay above the runway? Wouldn't RWY 6 be into the wind?

The wind is listed as the direction it is coming from, so the wind in the ATIS is coming from 214 degrees

The runway is numbered with the heading of the runway, i.e. RWY 24 is pointing towards 240 degrees.

This means the wind would be coming from 26 degrees to your left as you headed down RWY 24.

I am too lazy to figure out the crosswind component and headwind component for 8 kts, but I would estimate probably 2 or 3 kts left crosswind and about 5 to 6 kts headwind. There are many apps that can calculate it precisely for you or there is also the trusty E6B that can calculated it also.

If you are flying a left hand (standard) pattern this wind will push you towards the runway on down wind, make you fast on base, and push you to the right on final. Also your final will be shorter than with no wind, but this will let you have a shallower descent to make the runway.

If you want to visualize it think of being in a river and the runway is not aligned with the water flow. In this case the runway would be canted 26 degrees. If you were to swim the pattern what would the river do to your alignment to the runway. How hard would you have to swim on final to get back to the runway.

[AKar]

Exactly as above. To add a little bit, you might note that if the wind is quite close to the runway direction, the crosswind component will likely be rather negligible compared to 'randomness' of the surface winds (unfortunately mostly missing in FSX). In this case, as it was quite closely estimated above, you'd have a bit over 7 knots of headwind and only some 3.5 knots or so of crosswind component. It gives an idea however of the wind direction at traffic pattern altitude, where it likely is a bit stronger and more steady.

-Esa

[DHenriques_]

I'm practicing my "pattern" (pasta anyone? ) If you saw my "pattern" that would be the first word to come to mind. I'm practicing out of KGRB (Green Bay, Wisconsin) as luck would have it. a) that's the general area FS Flying School DEMO version is limited to, and b) the runways there are long for the 172 anyway, and oriented North - South. (According to FSX it's 8198 ft.)

Here's the thing. Would it be helpful to fly in no wind - granted it's not realistic - but, it'd be easier. That way, I could reintroduce the wind element after having mastered holding a heading.

I do have Pedals.

I just listed to ATIS. Wind is 214@8 RWY 24 in use. How do I use that information to my advantage, to stay above the runway? Wouldn't RWY 6 be into the wind? i.e. the runway I should be using? (just curious)

Thanks in advance,

Still Learning

Try not to get bogged down in numbers and dealing with too many specifics. Simply note the runway heading and the direction FROM which the wind is blowing. This is the BASIC information you need to know in order to plan your landing.
If you have radio contact you have wind speed along with the direction. Consider that an estimate if that is available.
If no radio contact you will have to estimate the wind speed and gust factors during your approach.
Your main source of wind information at ALL times is the aircraft itself. It will tell you what correction is needed starting on downwind. Notice any crab correction required to maintain the ground track desired. Downwind will give you a LOT of wind data helping you to plan your base turn and final approach. Once on final, the rest is simply good crosswind technique and landing technique.
Tip: If you are having trouble once on final either with gusts or holding runway heading with your wind correction, you will most likely have trouble with the landing. This is a good way to BASICALLY judge whether or not the wind is first within the demonstrated crosswind component for your airplane and secondly, whether YOU can handle the wind. If you feel over tasked either way, go around and choose another runway or even another airport.
All this of course applies to the real life situation. In the sim, you can set up any wind you desire and deal with that using the techniques above.
Try different wind settings from different directions and see how you do.
Dudley Henriques

[jeepinforfun]

Put your heading bug on the runway heading before takeoff then watch and follow it to each quarter position at each circuit turn to make a solid rectangle around the runway. It will give you something to help stay in a straight line until it becomes natural.

[Still Learning]

Put your heading bug on the runway heading before takeoff then watch and follow it to each quarter position at each circuit turn to make a solid rectangle around the runway. It will give you something to help stay in a straight line until it becomes natural.

I thought it was 90* turns. Thanks for the confirmation.

I heard about that heading bug tip somewhere either on YouTube or somewhere else on the Internet. Thanks for sharing - it's a great tip.

Still Learning

[Piper_EEWL]

Put your heading bug on the runway heading before takeoff then watch and follow it to each quarter position at each circuit turn to make a solid rectangle around the runway. It will give you something to help stay in a straight line until it becomes natural.

I thought it was 90* turns. Thanks for the confirmation.

I heard about that heading bug tip somewhere either on YouTube or somewhere else on the Internet. Thanks for sharing - it's a great tip.

Still Learning

It is a great tip yes. But it won't help you to correct for crosswinds. Because it gives you the heading and not the track! If you want to improve your crosswind skills you should try to follow DC3, Esa or Dudley Henriques advice. If you want to you can check your wind correction angle by comparing the indicated heading and the track indicated by the GPS.

[Still Learning]

Snip....

Where in the aircraft is the wind information? (aside from resorting to Shift-Z to find out)

So, if it's 214@8. Which would be just north of SSW, but to keep things simple it'd be out of the SW quadrant of the Compass Rose, at 8 knots. (Google Compass Rose.pdf, and it should turn up) So how do you get to the point of knowing the WCA (Wind Correction Angle) is 3 or 4 degrees?

One more question, What if you don't take the WCA into account, and maintain your ground track by using your rudder, would that process work to keep you flying over the runway (below)?

Thanks.

Still Learning.

Your main source of wind information at ALL times is the aircraft itself. It will tell you what correction is needed starting on downwind. Notice any crab correction required to maintain the ground track desired. Downwind will give you a LOT of wind data helping you to plan your base turn and final approach.
Dudley Henriques

[Still Learning]

Put your heading bug on the runway heading before takeoff then watch and follow it to each quarter position at each circuit turn to make a solid rectangle around the runway. It will give you something to help stay in a straight line until it becomes natural.

I thought it was 90* turns. Thanks for the confirmation.

I heard about that heading bug tip somewhere either on YouTube or somewhere else on the Internet. Thanks for sharing - it's a great tip.

Still Learning

It is a great tip yes. But it won't help you to correct for crosswinds. Because it gives you the heading and not the track! If you want to improve your crosswind skills you should try to follow DC3, Esa or Dudley Henriques advice. If you want to you can check your wind correction angle by comparing the indicated heading and the track indicated by the GPS.

Piper,

I agree it is a great tip because, it will, show captains of their ship, when to turn (with a graphic representation, every 90*) You are absolutely right, in your analysis of jeepinforfun's tip.

Still Learning

[ft]

Don't concern yourself with headings when flying a VFR pattern. Use the OWI* to place the legs of your pattern correctly, placing the nose any which old way it needs to be to do so.

Until you start flying big iron, you do not have the wind available in the aircraft. You're given the wind by ATC and by looking at windsocks, smoke stacks, water etc - not to mention the angle between your nose and your track over the ground.

You do not use the rudder to maintain your track (exception being on short final, kinda sorta, but leave that for now)! Keep the aircraft coordinated (i e slip ball centered) and point the nose to achieve the desired ground track.

Don't overdo it - just fly the airplane and most of the rest will sort itself out at this level.

Cheers,
/Fred

*) Outside World Indicator, big plexiglass instrument above the glareshield.

[Piper_EEWL]

...
*) Outside World Indicator, big plexiglass instrument above the glareshield.

That's a good one. I have to remember that the next time some of my fellow pilots keep staring at their instruments while flying VFR

[Oracle427]

The wind information in the aircraft is outside your window. Look out the window to see how the aircraft is tracking over the ground. If it is moving left or right then you have a wind blowing from that side. If it is moving left or right very quickly then the wind is strong.

In order to follow the path over the ground that you want, fly a crab to the left or right and you can judge wind strength based on the crab able as well.

As Dudley said, if you can get the ATIS/AWOS/ASOS, then you can get more accurate details, but it is not going to be more accurate than the information your eyes are giving you in real time. Fly the airplane around the rectangular pattern.

Deciding on the appropriate runway to land without radio contact can be determined with the above cues along with checking the windsock when you are near the field. In all cases your eyes and the performance of your aircraft are telling you the most accurate information about winds. IRL the winds are very dynamic and can change direction and intensity multiple times along the length of a runway due to obstructions.

[Oracle427]

BTW ft, in many GA aircraft these days you have very accurate wind data (GPS derived). If they have glass, they have this data.

[DC3]

In your original post the runway heading was 240 degrees (RWY24).
This means in a no wind situation crosswind would be 150 degrees, downwind would be 60 degrees, base would be 330 degrees, and final would be 240 degrees. Or, you can set your heading bug at 240 degrees and watch it make a clockwise circuit around the heading indicator.

When you are on downwind you can determine your wind correction angle which will be a number of degrees left or right of the 60 degree no wind course.

To do this fly the 60 degree no wind heading and note if you are moving closer to the runway or farther away from the runway.
If you are moving farther away from the runway turn 5 degrees (55 degree heading) left. If you are still moving away from the runway turn a few degrees more. If you start moving towards the runway turn a few degrees right. After a few adjustments you will find your wind correction angle without having to do any math at all.

If you are moving towards the runway then turn right 5 degrees (65 degree heading). If you start moving away from the runway turn left a few degrees, if you continue to move towards the runway turn right a few more degrees.

Your wind correction angle will be the difference between the heading that keeps you parallel to the runway and the no wind heading of 60 degrees.

Your next turn is base. If on downwind you were being pushed away from the runway then you will have a headwind on base and your base leg will take longer to fly. If on downwind you were being pushed toward the runway you will have a tailwind on base and your base leg will be short and you will risk overflying the turn to final. In the case of over flying the turn to final you might be tempted to bank hard and put in a lot of rudder. If you don't watch your speed this can easily put you into an accelerated stall and spin which generally an unrecoverable situation. If you can't make the turn to align with final push in the gas, overfly the runway, and tell the tower you are 'going around'. No shame in living to fly another day.

Once you are on final you will have to adjust your descent and speed to make a good landing. Again the trek on downwind can help you. If the downwind was short in time and seemed fast over the ground then you are going to have a pretty good headwind on final. If your downwind is leisurely and the speed over the ground seemed slow then you might have little or no headwind and hopefully no tailwind.

If you have a strong headwind it is going to take a while to get to the runway so maybe you don't need to descend at 400 fpm, maybe 300 fpm will do just fine. If you have no head wind then you might have to descend at 400 or 500 fpm to get down in the right place.

I know this is a lot. Fly it a couple of times and you will get the idea.

Have fun flying. Note most of this flying is done by looking out the window and not worrying about the instruments or calculations too much.

[Still Learning]

In your original post the runway heading was 240 degrees (RWY24).
This means in a no wind situation crosswind would be 150 degrees, downwind would be 60 degrees, base would be 330 degrees, and final would be 240 degrees. Or, you can set your heading bug at 240 degrees and watch it make a clockwise circuit around the heading indicator.

When you are on downwind you can determine your wind correction angle which will be a number of degrees left or right of the 60 degree no wind course.

To do this fly the 60 degree no wind heading and note if you are moving closer to the runway or farther away from the runway.
If you are moving farther away from the runway turn 5 degrees (55 degree heading) left. If you are still moving away from the runway turn a few degrees more. If you start moving towards the runway turn a few degrees right. After a few adjustments you will find your wind correction angle without having to do any math at all.

If you are moving towards the runway then turn right 5 degrees (65 degree heading). If you start moving away from the runway turn left a few degrees, if you continue to move towards the runway turn right a few more degrees.

Your wind correction angle will be the difference between the heading that keeps you parallel to the runway and the no wind heading of 60 degrees.

Your next turn is base. If on downwind you were being pushed away from the runway then you will have a headwind on base and your base leg will take longer to fly. If on downwind you were being pushed toward the runway you will have a tailwind on base and your base leg will be short and you will risk overflying the turn to final. In the case of over flying the turn to final you might be tempted to bank hard and put in a lot of rudder. If you don't watch your speed this can easily put you into an accelerated stall and spin which generally an unrecoverable situation. If you can't make the turn to align with final push in the gas, overfly the runway, and tell the tower you are 'going around'. No shame in living to fly another day.

Once you are on final you will have to adjust your descent and speed to make a good landing. Again the trek on downwind can help you. If the downwind was short in time and seemed fast over the ground then you are going to have a pretty good headwind on final. If your downwind is leisurely and the speed over the ground seemed slow then you might have little or no headwind and hopefully no tailwind.

If you have a strong headwind it is going to take a while to get to the runway so maybe you don't need to descend at 400 fpm, maybe 300 fpm will do just fine. If you have no head wind then you might have to descend at 400 or 500 fpm to get down in the right place.

I know this is a lot. Fly it a couple of times and you will get the idea.

Have fun flying. Note most of this flying is done by looking out the window and not worrying about the instruments or calculations too much.

Great post, DC3. Thanks for taking the time.

Still Learning