C172 Elevator Sensitivity, Slow Flight, Steep Turns

[jimst57]

Hi, first post here.

I know this has been mentioned before, but I'd just like to add my experience to the elevator sensitivity comments.

I have a Saitek Cessna yoke, throttle quadrant, and rudder pedals.

I have about 225 hours in Cessna 172's but haven't flown a real one in a long time. After flying the A2A C172 for about a week, a few things seem to stand out to me. One is the elevator sensitivity. I don't remember the real 172 being as difficult to control during a landing. I remember that, at least in the beginning, it was never easy, but the A2A 172 seems to float at the slightest back pressure. I've tried the null zone adjustments, and sensitivity controls in FSX and they help a little, but then I lose full motion control. I know there's a control in the Shift-3 screen, but I've changed that from 0 to 50 and didn't seem to notice any real difference. In fact I'm not too sure what that control is supposed to do and how I should set it. Is there any documentation for that control?

I also don't remember the real 172 so easily falling into a near spin at a stall in slow flight. As I remember it, it would stall, and if you were slightly uncoordinated, maybe fall a little to one side or the other, but the A2A 172 seems to fall easily into a near spin at a slow flight. It's almost hard to practice slow flight.

Last thing might be steep turns. I remember the real 172 requiring a LOT of back pressure tho hold the altitude in a steep turn, but the A2A 172 seems to easily dive into the turn and pick up lots of speed in a steep turn.

Just thought I'd mention these things to see if anyone else has the same experiences and any solutions.

I love the sim though, and may soon purchase the 182 as well.

[Scott - A2A]

Jim,

First, make sure you have the latest accu-sim update posted at the top of this forum.

I've learned how memories can play big tricks on the mind when it comes to stuff like this. Especially, since you are comparing a yoke with more forces to a sim yoke. The mind has to adapt to both environments.

The Cessna 172 is, relatively speaking, very light to the touch on flare, to the point where over control is common. You can see this by just sitting and watching aircraft land at any airport too. But like I said above, this all comes down to adapting to what is being perceived as proper sensitivity. Accu-Sim models the full elevator deflection, which other sims tend to not do this. There is no way around this if you are to have proper physics with the entire range of the elevator, and the best controller IMO for this is a CH Products yoke, which has strong springs, no self centering, and a long throw.

As for the sensitivity in the stall, if you try to hold a 172 in a stall with full yoke back, with just a little power, the ailerons will lose all effectiveness and the plane will absolutely drop and turn. Rudder is the only surface that is alive in the deep stall. Elevator trim also effects how deep the stall can get. We have probably a full hour of video deep stalling 172's over the years, and we've matched the behavior right along with these tests.

I just tried a 45 degree turn and the nose comes right down harshly without elevator, and on my system I'm showing a lot of elevator back needed to keep the turn, just like it should be. Again, please make sure you have the latest update, and if you do, this is a tough one to figure out, but I have little doubt this is somewhere between perception and controller sensitivity.

I hope this helps somewhat at least,
Scott.

[Nick - A2A]

Hi jimst57,

Welcome to the forums! Just wanted to check you've downloaded and installed the latest update? (Available here: http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 23&t=41279) It add lots of refinements since the original release.

Here's a description of the elevator force slider (from somewhere in the thread linked above):

- Simulated Elevator Force Slider

During development and through the heavy flight testing of the Cessna 172R, we started to identify differences between the actual yoke movements in the aircraft and how flight simmers interpret their own controller movements. Now with the masses weighing in, we've narrowed this down to two distinctly different camps defined as "Pressure flyers" and "Deflection flyers." Pressure flyers respond to stick spring pressure, while deflection flyers respond to stick deflection and this interpretation happens somewhere between the hand and the brain. My own personal experience on this is, I used to be a pressure flyer, but with the steady activity flying different aircraft types I've slowly become a deflection flyer. However, we've seen even active pilots that fly flight simulation, fall into either of these camps and anywhere in between. Here at A2A, we've always said "we believe in options." We always want the customer to be king in determining what is right for them and this is largely what this update has been about - our responding to customer needs and wishes. We think / hope we created a bridge for both camps and everyone in between, below.

There is a new slider in the lower left corner of the CONTROLS menu (SHIFT-3) called the "Simulated elevator force" slider (will be labelled later) which the user can adjust the elevator sensitivity based on the simulated forces on the yoke. A value of 0 is the current setup for deflection flyers, and pressure flyers can move the scalar up to fit their needs. This would give full elevator authority at slower speeds, yet allow those who find it too sensitive on their controllers to adjust to their personal preferences.

Cheers,
Nick

Edit: Scott beat me to it!

[jimst57]

Thanks guys.

I think Scott got it right in that part of my problem is the controller. It self centers in the middle and takes a little extra force to "break it free" of the middle when pulling back.
I think it's this behavior that tends to give a sudden upward movement. Same exists when pushing forward when it nears the center. It wants to jump back into the center position and this makes smooth control difficult.

Is there any particular CH Products yoke that you would reccomend, or are they all not self-centering?

Thanks again.

[Scott - A2A]

That self centering is really bad for flight sims - any CH yoke is good. They are all the same inner construction, and after a few hours with the CH, you will actually fly better.

Scott.

[Molly - A2A]

FYI, the CH "Eclipse" yoke and "Flight Sim" yoke are basically the same as far as internal construction and how they feel to operate. The difference is that the Eclipse yoke comes with a few more buttons and a unique "paddle" just behind the yoke that looks kind of like paddle shifters in a car... this is intended to be used as rudder control for those who don't have pedals. Therefore I recommend the regular "Flight Sim" yoke unless you can't use pedals or absolutely need the extra buttons. In my experience there are still plenty of buttons on the regular Flight Sim yoke so the Eclipse is overkill.

[GrandpaKim]

I too have the Saitek Cessna Yoke and in addition to the factors mentioned by the others, the yoke has a fairly short travel. I measured it. It comes to a total of 3.5 inches. From full up elevator to full down elevator only 3.5 inches! That means from tht neutral position to full up is only 1.75 inches. Yes, very delicate. I don't know how much a real life yoke travels but I would bet at least twice this. Maybe one of our RL pilots could check this out.

[Caldemeyn]

152 has some 18 centimeters from stops to stops, 7 inches

[Nick - A2A]

3.5 inches is seldom a statistic to be proud of so it seems. 7 inches is a bit more respectable perhaps. Sadly the wrist motion on my joystick if I hold it in the 'normal' position is a mere 3 inches (fore to aft) though the top of it does move a bit further. Grasping it by the top makes it rather hard to use the buttons though...

Nick

[bobsk8]

I am fooling around now with the C 172 and I have about 100 hours in the real aircraft. I too find the elevator overly sensitive, but I just discovered this thread and haven't tried the new setting on the F3. I have been playing with the sensitivity and the null zone using a Logitek 3D Pro. I used to own a Ch Yoke, but got so fed up with FS years ago, I threw all my FS stuff in the dumpster, Been looking at the Saitek Pro yoke since I got P3D, like the idea of the metal shaft and bearings. The CH yoke used to have a sticky feel especially for the elevator and around neutral which used to drive me crazy. Right where you need the finest control on a landing flare, it was "sticky". The problem I have at the moment, which I don't have at all in the 182 Cherokee, is the ballooning during the flare stage, little back pressure and it balloons up, release the back pressure and it heads for a nose wheel landing..Look like a 5 hour student pilot. I keep playing with the sensitivity and null zones but haven't hit the right settings yet.

Anyway, wonder what folks are setting the sensitivity and null zone for the C 172 in the control menu.

[Lewis - A2A]

For the most realistic you will want them on full 100%.

Under your shift + 3 panel you can change in sim a setting for changing a setting to suit your hardware.

thanks,
Lewis

[bobsk8]

For the most realistic you will want them on full 100%.

Under your shift + 3 panel you can change in sim a setting for changing a setting to suit your hardware.

thanks,
Lewis

Wow, What A difference. Put the null zone at zero and Sensitivity at 100% and greased the landing on first shot. I put the yoke pressure in the shift 3 panel at 3. I never noticed that setting because it is't labeled until you hover over it with the mouse. Would these sens and null zones also be Ok for the Cherokee?

[Lewis - A2A]

Hello,

yes we recommend those for FSX and our aircraft.

thanks,
Lewis

[jimst57]

It's still not too clear to me what the "Simulated elevator force" slider does.

I tried it the other night on both settings of 0 and then 100 and didn't notice much if any of a difference.

"which the user can adjust the elevator sensitivity based on the simulated forces on the yoke"

I guess it's not clear to me what the difference between "pressure flyers" and "deflection flyers" is and "simulated forces on the yoke"

Does anyone have a better description? If my yoke seems too sensitive, easily floating on flare, should I be adjusting more towards 100 or more towards 0?

[Oracle427]

On 0 I find that I need to fly the aircraft with a very gentle touch and apply pressure to my stick in order to control the aircraft.

When set to 100 I must move the stick in order to get a response. The difference is quite pronounced and I find that the default of 0 replicates the real world experience more closely for me. I believe the default is 0 if I recall correctly.

Float is not a function of control response. If you want to float less than you will need to approach at a lower airspeed.