A thread in AVSIM that took a strange direction

[Oracle427]

I thought that this was a strange direction that the thread took with the advice being given.

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/453682-mos ... try3097523

The advice was to replace the air files with the Real Air files for a more realistic simulation. I've used the Real Air files in the past and definitely found them to be an improvement over the stock 172. However I think there is a case of wanting the airplane to behave the way you want rather than trying to simulate the airplane you want.

Nudata mentioned that he posted here but I'm not sure under what name. Maybe he'll see this and chime in. I'm thinking that overwriting the air file on the A2A 172 would create more problems than it would solve! Besides, why would you pay $50 and then effectively delete the thing you paid for?

[Lewis - A2A]

Yes it is a bit strange to remove a professional level flight model but its up to the user. However I have posted to point out that it will of course invalidate all support and because of the Accu-sim engine you will not have a 172 simulation but a strange mish mash of all manner of numbers

cheers,
Lewis

[Ron Attwood]

Amazing! I'm a bit surprised Great Ozzie hasn't waded in and sorted them out. Maybe he felt it would be p*ssing into the wind.

[Great Ozzie]

Amazing! I'm a bit surprised Great Ozzie hasn't waded in and sorted them out. Maybe he felt it would be p*ssing into the wind.

Into the (virtual) prop wash...

'sides... I think between Oracle & Lewis, they've had a little wind let out of their (simulated) sails.

[Oracle427]

I'm trying to avoid stepping into the mist. I just thought I'd give a friendly poke in there and suggest a second and closer look at what they are saying.

[AKar]

Well, apparently the service is unavailable due to their server loads so I can't check the thread, but I assume that this is the good old FM made for very purpose to have more realism with default Cessna. It made a real improvement back then, and I used it often. I'd never mix it with Accusim though.

Now, I wonder why anyone would. Often when reading reviews online about simulated airplanes, and this doesn't relate to A2A nor RealAir in particular, the part concerning flight model goes like:

• "I've never flown a real world airplane, but the simulated airplane feels very well and performs by the numbers. I was able to make very good landings from the beginning and she's a joy to fly. It feels very realistic."

See the problem here? What if the flight model goes so far that it (properly, perhaps?) simulates some quirks of the real flight with the actual thing, that may 'get you' on the first times? If one suddenly needs to learn to fly, and if the airplane is not such a joy to fly before a certain feel is built for it, it seems that some folks out there on the ends of internet start by assuming that something is inherently wrong with the flight model. And they begin to "fix" things.

Not sure why they want to by products that attempt to provide the best possible realism, if in reality they just want an illusion of some realism but that still allows them to make nice silk-smooths and effortless hands-off cruise trips without autopilot just from the beginning? If a "simple" Cessna or Piper requires effort, then it must be off somehow. If its quirks need attention, then it must be too difficult.

Argh!


(Of course, I'm not talking about pointing out one's opinions for suggestions to fine-tune the bits and pieces, that serves us all - and has been taken into account very nicely. The Cessna for example is so far a much better product already due to many small improvements after release.)

-Esa

[Great Ozzie]

• "I've never flown a real world airplane, but the simulated airplane feels very well and performs by the numbers. I was able to make very good landings from the beginning and she's a joy to fly. It feels very realistic."

See the problem here?

How folks make the leap from "I've never flown a real world airplane" to "It feels very realistic", I'll never understand. I might as well be watching chickens attempting to fly.

Yes... watching the chickens in Chicken Run. Vastly more entertaining, and the chickens succeed in the end...

[Lewis - A2A]

Well everyones entitled to there opinions. Ive posted asking anyone wanting to discuss this to head on over here as we have always done with our open forums.

I am just happy that we have people such as the guys in this thread with what amounts to many lifetimes of aviation experience from PPL's CFI's and even Mechanics who are happy to read and contribute, share there experiences with our community here on the forums.

thanks,
Lewis

[Great Ozzie]

Well everyones entitled to there opinions.

I'm all for opinions, Lewis... by all means, have at it.

My point is, how can you form one, then speak to a subject, when there is no basis or foundation to do that?

I saw a recent post that went something like, "taxiing an airplane is easy... anyone can learn to do it in 5 minutes"... from a person who I gathered had zero minutes in an actual airplane. It's not "natural" switching from your arms to your feet to steer the airplane on the ground. I have known some folks (students) to have real trouble learning to taxi. I had trouble.

Having an opinion... fine. But expressing it (as fact) when you have no basis for it... that I do not get.

[Ron Attwood]

I saw a recent post that went something like, "taxiing an airplane is easy... anyone can learn to do it in 5 minutes"... from a person who I gathered had zero minutes in an actual airplane. It's not "natural" switching from your arms to your feet to steer the airplane on the ground. I have known some folks (students) to have real trouble learning to taxi. I had trouble.

That reminds me of when I went for my one and only flight. Although I didn't taxi the plane and I KNEW that you steered with the brakes/rudder pedals, my whole muscle memory system was screaming to twist the yoke from side to side!

Thought I'd just throw that in there.

[DHenriques_]

I saw a recent post that went something like, "taxiing an airplane is easy... anyone can learn to do it in 5 minutes"... from a person who I gathered had zero minutes in an actual airplane. It's not "natural" switching from your arms to your feet to steer the airplane on the ground. I have known some folks (students) to have real trouble learning to taxi. I had trouble.

That reminds me of when I went for my one and only flight. Although I didn't taxi the plane and I KNEW that you steered with the brakes/rudder pedals, my whole muscle memory system was screaming to twist the yoke from side to side!

Thought I'd just throw that in there.

The method I prefer and have suggested during seminars given to new instructors in the past is quite simple really. Instructor is advised to allow the student to taxi the airplane from the first hour of dual and for several dual sessions beyond that with the student's feet on the rudder pedals steering the airplane and the student's hands completely off the yoke or stick. The instructor handles the throttle and makes any yoke or stick correction needed for wind.
While the student is using the feet on the pedals as NECESSARY TO STEER THE AIRCRAFT, the instructor explains the use of the yoke for the wind correction as the instructor makes any correction required.

This method works quite well in weaning a new student off any natural tendency to apply directional control using the yoke which quite naturally equates in the student's mind with the steering wheel on their car and a conditioned reflex action that in the airplane has to be defeated.
Usually, using this method, the student becomes acclimated to the new steering ground environment for the airplane in short order. The instructor can then introduce throttle and yoke use to the student (usually on the second dual session) and complete the transition for the student to ground operation of the airplane.

Dudley Henriques

[computerflyer]

I found the comment that taxiing is very easy to be a little comical, based on my experience many years ago. In 1968, when I was 18 years old, my dad told me that as a gift he had arranged for me to go for a plane ride at the local airport. I assumed that this would be one of those introductory rides where they fly you around and let you hold the yoke for a minute or two. At that time I had a lot of RC flying experience and had many hours sitting in the back seat of my dad's Bonanza, but I had never had the opportunity to touch the plane's controls.

At the airport they turned me over to an instructor who was barely older than I was, probably about 20 years old. When we got into the plane I was surprised when the instructor told me to start up the plane, with only cursory instructions. Then he told me to contact the tower! He seemed bothered when he had to tell me what to say. Then he expected me to taxi out to the runway! What had my dad told the people at the airport? Did they somehow think that I had some flying experience?

I clearly remember the difficulty taxiing that Cessna 150. It felt really weird, like the rudder pedals were connected to the plane with rubber bands. I had trouble taxiing straight. My taxiing was more like the weaving of a World War II fighter in order to see over the fighter's nose.

I was shocked again when, after getting the ok from the tower, the instructor told me to takeoff, myself! I actually managed to keep the plane on the runway and we flew off to a practice area over a nearby lake. What followed was 2 hours of very stressful and demanding flying, all done totally by myself. That instructor really wrung me out. We did 360 turns, power-off stalls, power-on stalls, slow flight, fast flight, climbs and descents, everything but loops and spins. Then I flew the plane back to the airport and managed to get it on the ground in one piece.

Through all of this the instructor seemed to be basically satisfied with my efforts until it came to taxiing off the runway. When I tried to turn the Cessna onto a runway turnoff, I turned the yoke instead of pushing the rudder pedal. I knew better, but I couldn't help myself. It was an automatic reflex from driving a car. The instructor smirked at me with total disgust.

Then the instructor told me to turn into the parking spot. But with full rudder the plane wouldn't turn sharp enough. That young, sarcastic instructor chewed me out big time for being so stupid as to not use differential brakes.

Looking back on that experience, I find it somewhat humorous that after all that I had managed to do, my only big failure, and the only time when the instructor yelled at me, was when taxiing.

[DHenriques_]

I found the comment that taxiing is very easy to be a little comical, based on my experience many years ago. In 1968, when I was 18 years old, my dad told me that as a gift he had arranged for me to go for a plane ride at the local airport. I assumed that this would be one of those introductory rides where they fly you around and let you hold the yoke for a minute or two. At that time I had a lot of RC flying experience and had many hours sitting in the back seat of my dad's Bonanza, but I had never had the opportunity to touch the plane's controls.

At the airport they turned me over to an instructor who was barely older than I was, probably about 20 years old. When we got into the plane I was surprised when the instructor told me to start up the plane, with only cursory instructions. Then he told me to contact the tower! He seemed bothered when he had to tell me what to say. Then he expected me to taxi out to the runway! What had my dad told the people at the airport? Did they somehow think that I had some flying experience?

I clearly remember the difficulty taxiing that Cessna 150. It felt really weird, like the rudder pedals were connected to the plane with rubber bands. I had trouble taxiing straight. My taxiing was more like the weaving of a World War II fighter in order to see over the fighter's nose.

I was shocked again when, after getting the ok from the tower, the instructor told me to takeoff, myself! I actually managed to keep the plane on the runway and we flew off to a practice area over a nearby lake. What followed was 2 hours of very stressful and demanding flying, all done totally by myself. That instructor really wrung me out. We did 360 turns, power-off stalls, power-on stalls, slow flight, fast flight, climbs and descents, everything but loops and spins. Then I flew the plane back to the airport and managed to get it on the ground in one piece.

Through all of this the instructor seemed to be basically satisfied with my efforts until it came to taxiing off the runway. When I tried to turn the Cessna onto a runway turnoff, I turned the yoke instead of pushing the rudder pedal. I knew better, but I couldn't help myself. It was an automatic reflex from driving a car. The instructor smirked at me with total disgust.

Then the instructor told me to turn into the parking spot. But with full rudder the plane wouldn't turn sharp enough. That young, sarcastic instructor chewed me out big time for being so stupid as to not use differential brakes.

Looking back on that experience, I find it somewhat humorous that after all that I had managed to do, my only big failure, and the only time when the instructor yelled at me, was when taxiing.

Always amazes me when I hear about CFI's who "chastise" "bawl out" and otherwise take action verbally while with a student that dehumanizes or humiliates a student.
This is teaching "don't 101" and instantly marks that instructor as a rank amateur or worse.
The very essence of good flight instruction is based on encouragement. Instructors who can't deal with a teaching environment without going negative on a student this way should really find another line of work.
Dudley Henriques

[Nick - A2A]

Having read the thread over at Avsim, a remark by one of the posters about the flight model behaviour at the lower end of the flight envelope caught my eye. I tried a little experiment and I've posted my comment below.

I've looked at a few photographs of real C172Rs and noticed that for the majority of examples, the ASI white arc starts at 40 kias. The white arc in the A2A C172 starts at a significantly slower airspeed - 33 kias according to the POH. However, other real examples of C172's do also feature this ASI.

I'm curious as to why there's such a variation in the ASI's of real C172R's?

For what it worth, at gross weight of 1100kg in the A2A C172, with full flaps I do have trouble maintaining controlled flight down to 40 kias, let alone 33 kias. There's a strong tendency to drop a wing at around the 40 kias mark, and trying to hold the nose up will result in a spin before I can get down to 33 kias. (Perhaps I should qualify this remark by stating that I'm not a real pilot. However, I don't know that I'm a particularly ham-fisted sim one either!)

With respect to the remarks about taxiing and the yoke/steering wheel 'muscle memory', I was a little alarmed when I watched back the two videos I linked in this post in the "Lurching/Shudder upon landing" topic. I hadn't realised I was twisting the yoke so much to try and regain the centreline. I think this is partly because I use a twist-grip joystick and perhaps I've got into the habit of 'twisting and deflecting' at the same time to try and coordinate my turns. Perhaps it's time I got a more 'grown-up' flight controller! (and perhaps it's time I improved my technique!)

Anyway, it goes to prove the remarks made by Scott/Lewis about how useful it is to watch back footage rather than relying on memory...

Cheers,
Nick

[Great Ozzie]

I found the comment that taxiing is very easy to be a little comical, based on my experience many years ago.

Good post... not far off my first experience except the yelling. I have no idea how many hours zoomed by before being able to make a nice tight turn in Warrior. The tow bar and I were pals, and No... no... I didn't leave the plane parked like that....

Maybe the guy was practicing his "Marine D.I." technique. And folks in aviation have wondered why (for decades) why the student population is going down. Stuff like your experience does not help.

Even with what Dudley said about sticking the hands in the lap, that temptation (for me, at times I can remember) has to be fought - when the airplane is going in one direction and you want it to go in another. I can hear Yoda saying, "you must unlearn... what you have learned...". One thing that can also help with that, is knowing where the wind is from, and sticking the controls where they should be (and holding them there until the direction changes).

After my first lesson, seems Obi-wan said to me, "you don't want to be a pilot... you want to go home and rethink your life". Glad I stuck with it tho. Nothing like it.

Having read the thread over at Avsim, a remark by one of the posters about the flight model behaviour at the lower end of the flight envelope caught my eye. I tried a little experiment and I've posted my comment below.

After that post (last night) I tried a little slow flight in the A2A 172 - and I can generally keep the horn blaring between the bottom of the white arc and below 40kias (one person, full fuel, full flaps, S prop).

As far as the stall break, a power off stall (level, nose just above the horizon, maintaining altitude with increasing backpressure) - reviewing the fraps, the break does not happen until easily below the white arc.