Landing with jumps..

[Medtner]

I would not recommend leaving the throttle a little open during landing. For the moment that you are on final until performing your after landing checklist you aren't going to run much of a risk of fouling the plugs.

Opening the throttle may a tiny bit makes a very big difference in your landing distance to the tune of easily adding 100 to 200 extra feet before touchdown.

I usually set it to around the place that will give me a normal 900-1000 RPM idle - I don't want my engine to be to low on RPM for several reasons. If a late go around is needed I feel that if the engine is at 500-600 RPM it will be a longer stretch in time for it to come to full power (and coughing and drowning is an issue too).

On the other hand - I will rather have the idle a little lower than floating and thus making the landing less safe; especially when on shorter landing strips where terrain and such neccesitates a closed throttle I will do so. As a general rule I do however keep a nudge of power in there to keep the engine happy.

[Great Ozzie]

I would not recommend leaving the throttle a little open during landing. For the moment that you are on final until performing your after landing checklist you aren't going to run much of a risk of fouling the plugs.

Opening the throttle may a tiny bit makes a very big difference in your landing distance to the tune of easily adding 100 to 200 extra feet before touchdown.

Agreed.

No reason for it (power) normally with the C172 and 30° flaps... unless (asy you say Oracle) you want to add to the landing distance. I don't see any good reason for that.

If you are looking for "greasers" with the C172, that comes with finessing the stick right above the runway.

Also when flaring my instructor would have me pull back on yoke then forward then back so the plane won't sink to fast. Made some nice greasers, but I did also have some hard landings. ouch!!!
Well not that hard.

Not sure what you mean here... but like Dudley said... no forward pressure. One can drive it into the ground that way.

If one gets a bit aggressive with the backpressure (and starts to balloon) either hold the stick where it is - and get back into applying more as the airplane settles *or maybe* slightly let off some of that pressure and get right back on it. Again, this is where T.I. (time in i.e. experience) pays off.

I usually set it to around the place that will give me a normal 900-1000 RPM idle - I don't want my engine to be to low on RPM for several reasons. If a late go around is needed I feel that if the engine is at 500-600 RPM it will be a longer stretch in time for it to come to full power (and coughing and drowning is an issue too).

If this was a twin, I'd say yes... carry power into the transition. Because once you pull power you are going to plant it. And it's not a turbine, so "spool up time" not an issue here.

As long as you don't jam the throttle forward, the engine should not stumble... just a smooth application of power.

A smidge of power can be helpful in gusty conditions, but as Dudley said, this practice should be done with "zero" weather. Clear Wx theme ideal for this.

[Oracle427]

Medtner,

If I was at all concerned about the engine responding to an increase in throttle from idle. I wouldn't fly that airplane.

The increase in landing distance is quite noticeable even with just a very tiny nudge on the throttle lever. On a 2000 foot or shorter runway, things can get critical fast. In a bigger runway it won't be a problem for sure. Obviously, currency and personal minimums play into the figures as well.

There is a thing called clearing the engine where every 500 feet of descent one briefly accelerates a little to check the engines response from idle. I do this during prolonged descents to make sure my plugs aren't getting fouled.

Cessnaman,

I'm not sure how one could push forward at all during a flare without resulting in an immediate contact with the ground. Bottom line is do whatever your instructor is saying because they are actually sitting in the right seat. Maybe you are flaring too high and they are working you down closer to the ground. I used to do that and it took a while for me to lose the "ground shyness".

[Nick - A2A]

I noticed after installing the latest update to the Cherokee that I was tending to balloon when trying to land. Something seemed to be 'off'... (Something besides my dubious piloting skills that is! )

I realised eventually that the 'simulated elevator force' adjustment had reset to 0. I tend to fly with it at around 75% as I've found it tends to give me smoother pitch control. (I'm afraid I use a rather cheap and nasty Logitech joystick.)

Although this feature is not particularly well documented in the A2A Pilot's Manual (in fact, I'm not certain it's mentioned at all) this is something the OP could experiment with. (It's the little +/- slider bar in the bottom left corner of the shift 3 'controls' pop-up window.) The effects are more pronounced at higher speeds, but - as I found - it does seem to make a difference in the flare.

Obviously no substitute for the proper real-world techniques being discussed in this thread, but just a thought.

Cheers,
Nick

[Medtner]

Medtner,

If I was at all concerned about the engine responding to an increase in throttle from idle. I wouldn't fly that airplane.

The increase in landing distance is quite noticeable even with just a very tiny nudge on the throttle lever. On a 2000 foot or shorter runway, things can get critical fast. In a bigger runway it won't be a problem for sure. Obviously, currency and personal minimums play into the figures as well.

There is a thing called clearing the engine where every 500 feet of descent one briefly accelerates a little to check the engines response from idle. I do this during prolonged descents to make sure my plugs aren't getting fouled.

I'll go for a number of patterns to try it out. It is really something I've been doing for a while, and maybe there's room for improvement here.

[Great Ozzie]

In addition to "the above"... I would download (and read!) the following - because everything we're talking about going to be in those:

From the FAA Safety Pamphlet Library the "On Landings" series.
•FAA P-8740-48 On Landings Part I
•FAA P-8740-49 On Landings Part II
•FAA P-8740-50 On Landings Part III
(particularly the first two - btw you can also google "FAA P-8740-48" & that should bring the 3 up... written afaik by Bill Kershner)

Also, from the AOPA Safety Advisor site:
•Mastering Takeoffs and Landings
(note there are a number of very good - and brief - pdfs with great information)

On a 2000 foot or shorter runway, things can get critical fast. In a bigger runway it won't be a problem for sure. Obviously, currency and personal minimums play into the figures as well.

This is a *very* important point.

We're not at TopGun flying the airplane to the edge... but we are trying to master the capabilities of the airplane. If you go to the C172 "R" POH, you will see it takes approximately 1300' to land (and roll out) over a 50' obstacle (Read & Heed the "Conditions" & "Notes"). Add a 50% safety factor and a 2000' runway is certainly reasonable under certain conditions.

Now... you can practice all day long on 3 or 4000' feet of pavement. The problem is going to come when you go to squeak one in on a shorter grass runway. So yeah... we may operate out of a 4000' paved runway... but I guarantee you, at some point a good instructor is going to work you on that shorter grass strip.

I'll go for a number of patterns to try it out. It is really something I've been doing for a while, and maybe there's room for improvement here.

Now to me (without trying to sound patronizing) that is the mark of a good pilot... that kind of attitude.

[cessnaman]

Sorry, I shouldn't say move yoke forward, but actually just relax the yoke a little then pull back again.
I can't really explain it and maybe it was when I would level out and start the flare. It's been about 4 years since I've flown and I really can't remember. I need to get back into flying.

[Medtner]

I took the Cessna out for an hour just now - that is 45 minutes of flying (one does ones preflights properly!).

For one thing - the Machado trick does work wonders. I did fly with real weather, so there was a 40 degree 9 knot crosswind. This will make it difficult - the release of the rudder pressure just as I'm beginning the flare is something that alwas makes me float like crazy. Is there any solution for this?

I tried closing the throttle all the way - it is indeed very different. Must try it more - I've developed an automatic response when the RPM drops below 900 or so: to open the throttle a little. I don't like the sound of that low idle, it makes me uneasy. It does however give me less workload - I don't have to adjust the throttle all the way to the ground. Close the throttle and focus on the Machado-ing flare.

BTW: My go-to airport for practicing pattern is Willapa Harbor (2S9). It's a "classic" small airport, with only one narrow runway (3000 feet) and a small parking for GA. Go check it out!

[Great Ozzie]

For one thing - the Machado trick does work wonders. I did fly with real weather, so there was a 40 degree 9 knot crosswind. This will make it difficult - the release of the rudder pressure just as I'm beginning the flare is something that alwas makes me float like crazy. Is there any solution for this?

Well Erik, I really have no idea about this rudder effect you mention.

My big thing with the C172 is airspeed control. For the C172 w/ the "S" prop at gross weight, the book value is 61kias. That speed needs to be nailed... especially so if you are flying several hundred pounds less than gross (e.g. just the pilot and fuel). In addition, I like having that throttle out early (by 100' agl?) as long as I am on my glidepath (not dragging it in)... I want time for that engine to spool down to idle - which will alleviate the float.

With respect to Machado's "runway expansion effect"... this is also very useful to practice those night landings, particularly without a landing light. You have to use some sort of alternate means to gain the proper perspective when going into the transition. And this effect certainly very useful for that.

Nice little airport that Willapa Harbor.

-Rob

[Oracle427]

I did fly with real weather, so there was a 40 degree 9 knot crosswind. This will make it difficult - the release of the rudder pressure just as I'm beginning the flare is something that alwas makes me float like crazy. Is there any solution for this?

I am not sure what is happening here. I take it that you are crabbing into the wind to approach the runway and compensate for the crosswind. Once you get to short final, I assume you go cross controlled and then align the aircraft down the runway and use bank to correct for drift? I wouldn't expect there to be much difference in behavior during the flare using this technique. Are you holding the same approach speed or are you coming in faster to compensate for the crosswind?

If you were in a forward slip and using the airspeed indicator to judge your approach speed I could see how you could end up coming in much faster than thought as once you come out of the forward slip the airspeed indicator while usually read faster than while in the slip. You just need to rely on the pitch sight picture to control airspeed.