Landing with jumps..

[Sazoga]

Hey guys!

As you can see in my (german) video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdB9oJ3dQUY [42:00 and 47:20] => My landing is very bad, hard and rough.. So when I touch the runway, the Cessna is jumping in the air again.. Yeah, my pitch is very low but only because I would not descend with flaps and I would not decrease my speed.. So what am I doing wrong?

[Welsch]

No flare, you just seem to fly into the ground nose low and almost touch with the nose wheel first.
You have to arrest the descent shortly before touching down by raising the nose. You do that slowly and carefully and the plane will slow down and finally settle onto the runway in a nose up attitude, touching the ground with the main wheels first. It is normal to hear the onset of the stall warning horn at or shortly before touchdown in this situation.

[Great Ozzie]

Yes, precisely... there was no flare... touchdown @ 60kias (too fast). The airplane wasn't done flying. I was even wondering in the first one if the nose hit first.

Just before you touch down, start to pull that nose up. Nose high attitude and keep it like that until the plane settles (runs out of airspeed). Many times I cannot see the runway over the nose, and getting the stall horn easy in this C172.

(dang Welsch, we using nearly the same description )

[Sazoga]

So, I practised my approach and landing a lot more. Even with lower speed. The problem with flaring is: The plane starts to climb again, if I pull up the nose to flare. So then I have to make a go-arround :/

[Oracle427]

Welcome to the club .

First things first, good to hear that you are executing a go around if the landing is bad. That is good judgement.

You are flaring too much if you balloon. Also make sure your power is at idle before beginning the flare.

I like to begin a glide break just as I am about 50 feet of the ground to slow down my descent rate in preparation to flare. As I slowly descend to the height to flare I pull back a little to level off and then continue to pull back as required to hold it off. The key is to pull back as required only enough to hold height. Also don't relax the back pressure unless you add power and initiate a go around. The stick should only move back during the flare.

A small balloon can be corrected by adding in a very small amount of power while holding the stick where it is to ease the airplane back down. Once you are back at the correct height then you resume flaring and take out the power.

Practice makes perfect. This is why pilots are required to regularly make takeoffs and landings to allow them to be considered current for the purpose of carrying passengers. This skill must be regularly exercised. It took me about 100 landings before I was good enough to solo!

P.S. A2A is mailing you the bill for all the busted firewalls...

[Oracle427]

One more thing is to focus your eyes on the far end of the runway before starting your flare. If you look over the nose will get less cues because the viewpoint keeps changing.

[Great Ozzie]

Just to add to what the Oracle said...

It's not your speed going into the transition (flare)... 60kias is just fine.

Flare too late or too slow... you bang into the ground. Flare to quickly, as you said, you balloon.

This is one of those "Goldilocks" thingys... not too fast, not too slow... but just right, which does take a lot of practice to get the right perspective and to do what you need to do when you need to do it.

What airport in your video btw? Also... I would practice these to proficiency during daylight hours (not that some people have learned at night... but).

Edit: Sorry... I see now it is EDFZ (Flightport)

[Sazoga]

@Oracle

Oh, there's already a club? Good to know :3

I think if you fly "as real as it gets", then you have to make a go-arround, if your approach isn't good for a safe landing.

So, I think I make everything wrong.. I either jump back in the air after the touchdown (no flare) or I climb back in the air instead of a touchdown (too much flare). I think I'm going to test your power tips and the viewpoint tip tomorrow, and I also have to practise a lot more! 100 landings are a lot ^^

P.S. A2A is mailing me the bill for all the busted firewalls? I don't get it, sry D:


@Great Ozzie

Okay, so there is no uniform way to flare correctly, then I have to try it several times more.

And yeah, it's Flightport's (freeware) Mainz-Finthen (EDFZ) scenery, just amazing (if you like germany, but I hope so)

[Oracle427]

If you touch down on the nose wheel first, it is likely that the firewall will take damage. The nose wheel is attached to the firewall.

[Great Ozzie]

Okay, so there is no uniform way to flare correctly, then I have to try it several times more.

Let me put it this way... you are trying to hit several parameters.

First off, I want to be aligned with the runway and not drifting (laterally).

Secondly, I want the airplane in a nose high attitude before touching down. Three-point *not* a good thing in a nose-dragger. How high nose high? Man... I really like to get that nose up in the sim. When that nose comes up, I have to transition my eyes from over the nose to off the left front of the cockpit because I _will_ lose sight of the end of the runway. However... I do not want to over-rotate and end up striking the tail (that too much of a good thing and no... no "never again" stories).

Third, for this type of airplane like our C172, I don't want the mains (main wheels) to touch the pavement until the airplane is done flying. To me, ideally (RW) you want that stick in your lap / running out of elevator control & getting the stall & squeaking on the pavement all at the same time. In the sim, if I get the stall warning with the wheels inches above the runway and the plane settles in... I'm happy.

So aligned and not drifting, nose-high, and squeaking on when the airplane is done flying. Use what control inputs you need to accomplish those goals.

I also have to practise a lot more! 100 landings are a lot ^^

I went back to my first logbook, to look at my pre-solo era. I solo'd on a Thursday. Just from the previous Monday (three days before - not including any lessons before that) until I solo'd, I had over 30 landings.

I don't golf, but I understand golfers will get a bucket of golf balls and have at it (practice for an hour or so). I think I heard one story once of Arnold Palmer would practice hitting "a thousand" golf balls a day. To me, to get good at this, it something you need to practice over and over and over. The day I solo'd, I logged 14 landings. Go up and fly a pattern and put in a half-dozen to dozen landings or so. Do that daily for the next month. Make sure you practice "the right things"... like airspeed control, proper glidepath. If you are practicing... and practicing correctly, no question you will get better. This definitely another one of those things that takes time and energy to be good.

Btw, I did install Flightport's Mainz-Finthen... and it is very nice. Thanks for the tip on that.

-Rob

[DHenriques_]

Hey guys!

As you can see in my (german) video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdB9oJ3dQUY [42:00 and 47:20] => My landing is very bad, hard and rough.. So when I touch the runway, the Cessna is jumping in the air again.. Yeah, my pitch is very low but only because I would not descend with flaps and I would not decrease my speed.. So what am I doing wrong?

Sorry for checking in so late on this. I see you have gotten some good advice from several sources.
I'll begin here by explaining that it's a bit difficult to "instruct" someone accurately on landings outside of simple explanation when not actually in the airplane with them as every landing has it's own requirements due to variable conditions. So what we have to do here on a forum is try and give you an ideal situation which is what others have already done fairly well.
Actually this is almost exactly how I might teach a student in the real airplane.
What I will do here is give you a simple set of "rules to follow" that should get you on the ground in one piece if nothing else. Once you have a landing done following this scenario you can alter the steps easily for conditions as they occur in the simulator.
I'm only going to give you one approach parameter to meet. How you get there is up to you. We will only be dealing with your flare and your landing.
Set up FSX for no wind please.
What I'd like you to do is visualize an open window 50 feet above the runway you are landing on. Do whatever you have to do to place the 172 through that open window at 65knots in landing configuration with full flaps and in trim.
Once through that window, idle the throttle and let the airplane settle down to a few feet above the runway.
Now here comes the good part
Stop the sink a few feet above the runway with just enough back pressure on the yoke to put the nose of the 172 on the far end of the runway.
You are now in the flare at what we call a "landing attitude". The airspeed is decreasing and as it does the airplane wants to settle in and touch down. But you don't want to let that happen because you still have some flying speed left to get rid of. You do that by stopping the airplane from landing by keeping that nose PINNED on the far end of the runway WITH BACK PRESSURE ON THE YOKE. Whatever you do DON'T apply any forward pressure on the yoke at all.You do that and you are literally guaranteed a bounce and/or a bad landing on the nose wheel ! Remember this; Once you begin your flare, the landing is accomplished with ONLY BACK PRESSURE on the yoke ! PIN that nose on the far end of the runway and keep it there. If it goes above the far end of the runway you are applying too much back pressure and you will balloon. Not enough back pressure and the airplane will land before you want it to and be above your touchdown airspeed. Remembering this about the yoke is extremely important !
Now you are in a game with the airplane. The more airspeed you lose the more it wants to land. Just keep it from landing until you run out of back pressure on the yoke. If you have placed the aircraft correctly a few feet above the runway surface while performing your flare it should settle on the mains only a little nose high and in the center of the runway lined up correctly.
The main thing to remember in the flare is that at NO TIME once you begin the flare should you ever be applying forward pressure on the yoke. Pressure should be back pressure all through the flare and the landing. Remember.......back pressure ONLY. It's your back pressure playing against the airplane wanting to land that defines the flare !!!!!!!!!!!! I repeat it again for clarity.......NO FORWARD PRESSURE ON THE YOKE !

If you have done everything right you will run out of yoke at almost the same instant the MAIN WHEELS touch down.
Remember that all through this you are maintaining directional control with the rudder. Remember we have no wind. With wind you'll be holding in some aileron to correct for that plus rudder for directional control.
Now keep in mind this isn't the beginning and end of landing the airplane, but if you can study this carefully, visualize what I've told you, and practice a little, you should accomplish a learning process that will eventually put you on the right path to understanding what's happening as you are landing the airplane.
Best of luck to you, and enjoy the A2A 172.
Dudley Henriques

[cessnaman]

This Video may help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5HEJCyTuk

[Medtner]

This Video may help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5HEJCyTuk

I was thinking about this video when reading this discussion. I just couldn't remember who had made it - so thanks for posting it, Cessnaman! Gotta love Rod Machado!

When I first got this little extra hint I tried it out several times with the C172. It does work, and while it is sort of dependent on a stable and normal approach, it is a general tendency in most situations that the runway will start growing rapidly in width just around the time when it is a good idea to go to idle* and start, as Dudley wonderfully explains, pulling the yoke towards you to loose the speed and get the plane ready to stop flying. Try it out, and do so several times. It does take patience, and you will become very familiar with the area around the airport as you fly pattern after pattern after pattern...

* With the new world of the A2A aircraft "flight idle" does actually mean something, as opposed to the horrible eye-candy planes from other developers. Closing the throttle completely is something I almost never do anymore - I always leave an inch or so, which is enough to keep the engine from fouling the spark plugs and/or stalling.

[Oracle427]

I would not recommend leaving the throttle a little open during landing. For the moment that you are on final until performing your after landing checklist you aren't going to run much of a risk of fouling the plugs.

Opening the throttle may a tiny bit makes a very big difference in your landing distance to the tune of easily adding 100 to 200 extra feet before touchdown.

[cessnaman]

I would do it like I did with my flight instructor. I would either go to idle at the fence line or the threshold, depending on the runway and winds, ect. With strong headwinds would hold a little throttle until time of flare. Also when flaring my instructor would have me pull back on yoke then forward then back so the plane won't sink to fast. Made some nice greasers, but I did also have some hard landings. ouch!!!
Well not that hard.