OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Battle of Britain "Wings of Victory"
User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3916
Joined: 02 Sep 2013, 19:30
Location: 3N6
Contact:

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by Oracle427 »

I can't speak for spotting flak, but I can say that it is terribly difficult to spot an aircraft of the size of these fighters unless you know exactly where to look for them. Even within 3 miles, you are looking for a very small object and you need to scan the sky very methodically to spot an aircraft. CLoD is very realistic IMHO when it comes to aircraft spotting. It takes a lot of practice and there is a very good reason why lone aircraft where sitting ducks. They just couldn't scan the sky quickly enough on their own.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

rogeroger
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 271
Joined: 13 Aug 2016, 15:04

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by rogeroger »

This sim uses the cfs3 engine if I'm not mistaken. I have Cfs3 Eto on my pc, and when playing some of the 'just flight' and old 'bob' missions I find aircraft spotting can be near impossible when compared to bob2.
It looks like 'il2 Clod Blitz' developers seemed to have resolved this issue by giving distant lower lod(level of detail) models dark or black skins for easier spotting, and it works pretty well.

User avatar
33lima3
Senior Airman
Posts: 196
Joined: 11 Dec 2018, 14:48

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by 33lima3 »

I see that the Dec 21 patch...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/t ... ember-2018

...looks like it may be specifically intended to address some of the issues I listed 'overleaf'; for example the 'revised bomber formation spacings' (closer being needed) and possibly also the 'revised terrain tiles' (less patchwork quilt contrast being needed there).

The new ability to disable 'regional' flights and those standing by on the ground, apart from the stated aim of reducing the diversion of system resources to (IMHO) low-priority features, may also have the beneficial side-effect, intended or not, of enabling players to increase aircraft density and see more planes where it actually matters. Maybe, maybe not.

However, the notion that the new ability to have German bomber' flights' (=formations of staffel size or less, from what I can see) form up in larger (=greater than staffel?) groups only 'sometimes', while at other times coming in separately and/or from different directions, ' to simulate difficulties in meeting up', seems to me to display at best a mis-reading of sources and at worst, a (continued) lack of awareness of how Luftwaffe bombers generally operated in the Battle - with a Gruppe of 20-30 bombers not a staffel being the operational unit and generally operating out of the same airfield or closely-spaced satellites. So German bombers should rarely if ever have diffs meeting up as a Gruppe, which diffs should be confined to escorts and bombers meeting up , or to an extent different bomber gruppen not managing to co-ordinate their timings. Yes I know two KG76 gruppen joined up for the am London raid on BoB Day, but that was because they were both under strength, one badly. The Kenley low-level raid notwithstanding, a staffel of bombers would just not go in on its own, unless perhaps simply acting as lockvogel, bait for fighters, which IIRC Townsend describes in 'Duel of Eagles' but I don't think was common. Not by staffeln anyway, I suppose you could regard all the bombers raiding London by day from 7 September as lockvogel, since these attacks were designed to draw the RAF into the air to be shot down, and they would not have scrambled unless there were at least some bombers there.

Nothing on R/T traffic; watching YouTube videos, the contrast, during an air fight, between WoTR's almost silent airwaves and BOB2's sometimes repetitive but imaginative and immersive cacophony is very stark. They badly, badly need some way of triggering many more messages from your leader or flight-mates, and when playing RAF, of injecting even some credible messages from Controllers, even generic ones would be better than none at all. CFS2 managed this by having a campaign based on scripted missions, and in EAW you cound trigger a 'vector' by asking the Controller yourself.

That, and the default raid being a bomber gruppe no less, would be a big step in the right direction. Ought to have been regarded as 'must have' features from the outset really, for a BoB sim, a 'What WERE they thinking?' situation.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

User avatar
33lima3
Senior Airman
Posts: 196
Joined: 11 Dec 2018, 14:48

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by 33lima3 »

As of mid-January and another patch or two, things don't seem to have changed much - this, reported in the accompanying brief Sim HQ mission report as a 'ten plus' (!!!) raid, with no escort, still displays painfully (not merely unrealistically) small raids and huge bomber formation gaps.

Image

I really think I'd have given this a try - you can always add for yourself the missing patch of Dark Earth on the Hurri's port wing, though the B Scheme pattern ought to have taken almost no research to have got right - but the tiny and spaced out bomber formations kill this for me, not to mention showing insufficient respect for history.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

User avatar
33lima3
Senior Airman
Posts: 196
Joined: 11 Dec 2018, 14:48

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by 33lima3 »

I'm not sure if it's 'done' to post other people's screenies from other forums here so I'll post a link this time.

The pic in this post...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/t ... ost4453570

...seems to show that WoTR can generate raids which if below the BoB2 max is not unreasonable, with about 30-plus aircraft labels visible, He111s and Ju88s reportedly, mainly in two formations of about fifteen each.

This was taken on the heaviest air activity setting and seems to have brought the poster's new CPU (the main choke point for WoTR apparently, like WoFF) to its knees. However it was taken I think before the patch which did things which might reduce the CPU load.

The formation which is more visible is still well too widely spaced, and the Hurricane still has a major error in the port wing camouflage pattern. The former was said by a dev to be an easy edit but the fact it hasn't been done seems to indicate it may be problematic ie formation-keeping or collisions.

Still watching and hoping this one will get over the line - my line anyway, YMMV - but WoTR's still got some way to go. Should it choose to go there, they may be cool with what they have - a sim of flying and fighting in and against some BoB planes rather than that, plus in a credible and immersive simulation of the Battle of Britain.

I can't see though how this squares with OBD's stated and most worthy ambition of including daylight raids on Germany (presumably within a reasonable min spec) if they can't do even fifty or a hundred-plus raids in the Battle of Britain. But as the CloD specs are even higher and its AI reportedly near brain-dead, perhaps there is really a niche for virtual pilots who are content to fly a couple of virtual BoB planes over a virtual SE England, without worrying over whether it's just a reasonable simulation of that, plus a reasonable simulation of the Battle of Britain, which latter, ATM, neither CloD nor WotR can really lay claim to. Whereas BoB 2 still does a particularly good job at both. No reason not to enjoy both approaches and any or all of the three, if they float your boat, proverbial, virtual or actual.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Eisenfaust
Airman
Posts: 26
Joined: 06 Dec 2017, 17:46

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by Eisenfaust »

Insufficient respect for history? That is harsh and not fair!

I never found ANY game at all that replicates history perfectly!

And BoB2 - in spite of being a fantastic GAME overall - also is not "historically correct" an all aspects...

To name a few:

- The Luftwaffe can win

- Battles are to bloody - casualty rates in 3d battles are to high

- in the campaign neither defiants nor blenheim ifs can intercept - although they did...

- Ju 88 can't dive bomb

- 109s can't bomb

- Jagdflieger are limited to one mission a day

Do these inaccuracies make BoB2 a bad game? Of course not! It concentrates on other things and does them terrific!

WOTR doesn't try to be BoB2 - it concentes on other areas and does them quite well...

All this "Being a pilot in a squadron" stuff that neither BoB2 nor CLOD really do is actually done quite well!

All in all I like BoB2 more than WOTR right now - but neither is WOTR a bad game nor do I see an insufficient respect for history... OBD is working with a diffrent engine that has certain limits...

CLOD doen't have higher specs...

User avatar
33lima3
Senior Airman
Posts: 196
Joined: 11 Dec 2018, 14:48

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by 33lima3 »

There's no point disputing matters of taste, or so they say, but just this once :)

For me, tiny Luftwaffe raids alone justify 'insufficient respect for history'. This was the Battle of Britain, not the Minor Skirmish of Britain. Whatever else you've got, if you haven't got bigger than that, forget it, it's not respecting history.

As regards the implication that the Luftwaffe being able to win is somehow ahistorical, opinion remains divided on that. 'Dizzy' Allen was a Spit pilot who flew and fought in the Battle AND he was a staff-trained airman, neither of which you nor I are, nor most writers or historians for that matter. If you have read his book you will know that his main conclusions are that 1. whoever won the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe did not lose it; 2. the force that was defeated was 11 Group; 3 the Luftwaffe achieved air superiority over the invasion area in late August-early September; 4. Sealion did not nevertheless happen because it was never a feasible operation of war; and 5. had it been launched, it would have been smashed by the Royal Navy regardless of losses. Whether we agree with all or any of that, qualified to do so or not, you can hardly fault Rowan for allowing that the air battle might have ended differently.

Did the Blenheim fly daylight interceptions after 600 Squadron got a bloody nose about May-June 1940? Night ops don't much count. At least BoB2 does have both Blenheim and Defiant present, their minor role in the sim reflecting their minor role in the Battle.

Most 109s could not bomb, and not having the E1B or later E4B is hardly a significant omission.

Anyhow, the absence of 'nice to have' features is one thing. The absence of essential features is something else. If default raids a LOT bigger than 'ten plus' (and available to players who at least meet the min specs) isn't an essential feature for something which endeavours to represent the Battle of Britain, I really don't know what is.

I AM being harsh (not unfair) but that's how I feel. Fine WotR isn't trying to be BoB2, but it is trying to represent the Battle of Britain, and is IMHO not doing it well enough. That's my opinion, yours is different, got it!

WoTR min specs, per the ODB site:
- CPU: Intel 3.0 GHz CPU Speed or higher.
- NVidia Graphics card, 670 GTX or above.
- 1.5GB or more of GPU RAM on the card is recommended.
- Memory: 6GB RAM or higher

CloD min specs per Steam (Blitz edition which is what they sell nowadays)
- Processor: Intel Core I5 6500 or equivalent [3.2-3.6Ghz]
- Graphics: Direct X 11.0 compliant 4 gb
- Memory: 8 GB RAM
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Eisenfaust
Airman
Posts: 26
Joined: 06 Dec 2017, 17:46

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by Eisenfaust »

Exactly my point - inaccuracies are ok in games ;)

OBD works with cfs3 engine and are tied to the limits of the engine.

Actually bob2 is the only fightsim I know, that has such large formations + acceptable graphics + decent flight models...

So WOTR isn't unusaully small - bob2 is just epic in that regard.

So OBD tries hard to deliver an immersive experience - as accurate as they can!

You may come to the conclusion they failed and of course don't have to like the game - but insufficiant respect still is not fair and I believe not true.

concerning specs:
Might be - but both my systems run clod smoother and more beautiful than WOTR :)

User avatar
33lima3
Senior Airman
Posts: 196
Joined: 11 Dec 2018, 14:48

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by 33lima3 »

Thanks for the info on specs - tends to confirm reports that the CloD Blitz min specs are overstated. I may pick it up in a Steam sale and see how it goes. No interest in MP here and the poor AI and campaign/mission content make it of little attraction. The look of the landscapes seems to be better than it once was altho those prominent 'Mr Blobby' tree-rows look terrible. I hope the 'light sabre' tracers are also gone, or perhaps they only look like that in screenshots.

I'll not labour my views on WotR as I have made those, and the basis for them, clear enough and we are just going to have to agree to differ. Should OBD be able to generate default raids of around gruppe strength at min specs, tighten (and maintain) realistic bomber formations - and preferably fix that Hurricane camouflage pattern error - I will probably swallow the lack of ground controller and give it a try. They WILL have to fix the first two for 'Battle of Germany', though - ok B17-2 worked with very small formations, but only because the focus was intense and inside your bomber, which was implemented so very well. Beyond your own squadron, the lack of a backdrop became almost un-noticeable, like the effect a troupe of decent actors could achieve with nothing more than their performances, their costumes and a couple of props. But it fails badly from the Luftwaffe point of view because big formations are the very visible, front-of-stage thing that it's your job to face and deal with - as in the Battle of Britain, real or simulated. IL-2 '46 mission-builders managed it. The formations weren't HUGE, but they were just big and tight enough to create the necessary impression of reality and 'suspension of disbelief' - what I don't get when I see a WotR bomber formation - but it is do-able.

Image
Image
Image
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Eisenfaust
Airman
Posts: 26
Joined: 06 Dec 2017, 17:46

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by Eisenfaust »

Did they? Great! What missions/campaigns are you talking about? Any links? Always wanted to face 8th airforce - haven't seen a game yet (I thought at least ^^) that did it right and with acceptable looks (Can't get warm with EAW)

Concerning CLOD:
I may have said it in this threat already but they are working on a better SP-experience for 5.0 - since like you I'm an offline only player I keep my hopes up ^^

User avatar
33lima3
Senior Airman
Posts: 196
Joined: 11 Dec 2018, 14:48

Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released

Post by 33lima3 »

Eisenfaust wrote:Did they? Great! What missions/campaigns are you talking about? Any links? Always wanted to face 8th airforce - haven't seen a game yet (I thought at least ^^) that did it right and with acceptable looks (Can't get warm with EAW)

Concerning CLOD:
I may have said it in this threat already but they are working on a better SP-experience for 5.0 - since like you I'm an offline only player I keep my hopes up ^^
This is one of the IL-2 '46 Defence of the Reich campaigns I have, by Flatspinman, still available over at Mission4today:

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... ls&id=3856

Did a series of mission reports over at Combatace, starting with this one - the campaign begins with you in Norway intercepting low-level Mosquito raiders, before you are transferred south and start running into the heavies: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/8054 ... -squadron/

The other campaign I've played is Boelcke's Defence of the Reich one, mentioned here: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/8048 ... the-reich/

The link further down that post is where I found that one: http://www.axis-and-allies-paintworks.c ... p?view.517

At that stage I was playing and still mainly play the Dark Blue World mod...

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/ ... b6783c4546

...which I still prefer over the later CUP (which I have a second install for) and BAT mods as DBW seems to have more campaigns and other content that is compatible with it, including other 'Willi Jedermann' fighter campaigns by Flatspinman, including this one with JG27 in North Africa: https://combatace.com/forums/topic/8527 ... th-africa/

Image

The two RVD campaigns make the best of the maps available at the time, and some involve air starts IIRC. One of Flatspinman's missions even has you trying out air-to-air bombing, as tried by Heinz Knoke with JG1 or JG11.

Image

And of course you can do gun attacks afterwards.

Image

And pick off stragglers...

Image

Image

...and have near misses...

Image

Setting up formation attacks eg head on isn't easily arranged but the overall effect I find very satisfactory.

Image

Image

And it can look better with smoke and tracer effects mods, which I don't have.

PS Fishyyy's got several good Il-2 '46 8th AF videos over at Youtube, including this one of an MP mission of which an SP download's also available:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dgeclsac_M
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

new reply

Return to “BOB2 General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests