OT - Wings Over the Reich released

[Pat_Pattle]

Exciting news, WoTR has been released

http://www.wingsoverthereich.com

To coin a phrase, “Bloody marvellous!”

The first phase is The Battle of Britain and this will be built upon and expanded if interest and sales go well.

I wish them all the best!

[Lofty Anstruther]

Thanks Pat - I had just seen my ODB Software newsletter and thought I would log on to update the good folks who visit the BoB2 site, but you beat me to it!

I note that the flyable aircraft are Hurricane and Bf109 but there is a range of AI aircraft from the Battle. I will give it a go - the more who do so means the greater likelihood that the intended expansions actually happen. Mind you, it will have to go some to beat BoB2!

[Pat_Pattle]

Post subject: Re: OT - Wings Over the Reich released Reply with quote
Thanks Pat - I had just seen my ODB Software newsletter and thought I would log on to update the good folks who visit the BoB2 site, but you beat me to it!

I note that the flyable aircraft are Hurricane and Bf109 but there is a range of AI aircraft from the Battle. I will give it a go - the more who do so means the greater likelihood that the intended expansions actually happen. Mind you, it will have to go some to beat BoB2!

Hi Lofty,

Sorry, I couldn't contain my excitement!

Yes it's small beginnings but hopefully given enough support it will become as big as WoFF. I've been flying it already, it's brilliant!

It has its own forum already: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/f ... -the-reich

Cheers,

Clive

[ShadowShooter]

I came in a lame 3rd ready to break the news!

A couple of questions for Pat:

What sort of numbers are in the bomber formations?

Judging by the video and screenshots the night missions seem very dark. How are they to fly?

[Mickvet]

While WOTR is a very promising addition to the single-player genre, more particularly when it, hopefully, progresses to new theatres, I am pleasantly surprised how BOB II is holding up by comparison, at least going by the screenshots. There doesn't seem an enormous difference graphically between the two and we already know that, while different, both possess excellent AI and campaigns.

For my own part, I will stay as I am, not least because WOTR's minimum specs require that I invest several hundred euros to match them and the recommended ones even more. I'm just realising how lucky I am to have such a great sim that works so well with my now increasingly modest system.

[Eisenfaust]

To all who played both bob2 and wotr:

How do flying, ai and campaign compare?

[attilla]

BoB's AI seems superior at the moment, but I've only done a dozen flights so far. No campaign yet so I cannot comment. The flying caracteristics give a mixed feeling. I do hope they improve the simulations. If it gets OFF equivalent then we will have a winner

[PieceOfCake]

While WOTR is a very promising addition to the single-player genre, more particularly when it, hopefully, progresses to new theatres, I am pleasantly surprised how BOB II is holding up by comparison, at least going by the screenshots. There doesn't seem an enormous difference graphically between the two and we already know that, while different, both possess excellent AI and campaigns.

For my own part, I will stay as I am, not least because WOTR's minimum specs require that I invest several hundred euros to match them and the recommended ones even more. I'm just realising how lucky I am to have such a great sim that works so well with my now increasingly modest system.

Don't forget that WOTR is also based on an old engine: Combat Flight Simulator 3.
I got their previous title Over The Flanders Fields, but I didn't like the flight model. It felt stiff and old.
I hope their new sim turns out better over time and I might get it. But it got some mediocre reviews due to low fps and mediocre flight model

[33lima3]

Things I have noticed from mission reports, other player posts and video clips...

Bombers in formation are very widely-spaced and the formations themselves, tiny. Instead of the Gruppe or so that should be the typical raid (or component of a bigger one), there seems to be a staffel or less, with maybe a schwarm for escort - more like the Minor Skirmish of Britain. A recent patch reportedly improved this but I have noticed no particular change yet, in the more recent video clips posted to date. Your defending squadron often seems to outnumber the raid you are going for.

Apart from what you get in the preflight briefing, there is no representation of RAF Ground Controllers, that I have noticed from videos anyway.

R/T chatter, tho better than stock CFS3, is not well done eg 'Attacking ENEMY target!' - like, you would ever be attacking a FRIENDLY one??? - when 'Attacking NOW!' would have done, and been more realistic/military.

As with WoFF, AI-led flights flatten out and fly around at really low level for some time after takeoff, not great for WW1 but ridiculous for an RAF BoB scramble. Would probably be better if you selected the option to be the leader, so you could at least start seriously climbing for height sooner. But when attacking, AI led flights just seem to break up wildly, then get in each other's way trying to get at a bomber in one of those tiny formations.

Bailouts are not well done - chutes pop open instantly and very close to the stricken plane, invariably in closely-spaced pairs for crewed aircraft.

Planes going down seem to tumble rather wildly. 110s exhibited some UFO-like moves but have reportedly been tamed.

The very high contrast between the cornfields and others results in an overdone and distracting 'patchwork quilt' effect.

Multiskin was absent originally and is now limited to other aircraft in your flying unit, with most planes of the same type in an identical skin.

I agree with the observation that the WoFF FMs are strangely turgid, dunno if WotR's are similar.

Hurricanes seem able to force land, and then turn, like hovercraft, on the radiator housing, and their start-up animation looks like you have briefly sprouted a Griffon prop (except with even more blades).

As with WoFF, the system specs are high for what there is, possibly due to system resources being wasted (IMHO) running flights the player will never see (unless he goes for a jolly instead of flying the mission).

Very small flyable planeset of course, and unlike say Strike Fighters, not really open to user modding.

On the plus side I really like the cockpits, and the Spit 1 is to be free when available, along with Phase 2 (Battle of France) which may suffer less from the lack of Ground Controllers and to an extent, from the small formations. But from what I have seen, WoTR has a long, long way to go to become even an acceptable simulation of the Battle of Britain. Your mileage may vary of course and good luck to those who enjoy it.

[Mickvet]

I'd have to buy a new pc and video card as my present setup fails to even equal minimum specs. Having bought WOFF three times, or so it seemed to me, I feel no obligation to invest in what seems a game in need of quite a bit of fixing. Thanks for a comprehensive review, Lima.

This old girl still represents the top BoB sim, I'd say.

[PieceOfCake]

I see no reason getting it since we have Bob2.
What can WoTR give us that Bob2 don't?

Superb A.I? Nope!
Excellent flight model? No. I have seen videos and read reviews. Says the Hurricane feels stiff and on rails and too stable.
Hundreds of planes in the air? No. Not seen any video, photos or reviews revealing anything about that. All I have seen is just a couple of planes in the air at the same time.
Performance: Reports of very low FPS over London (5 - 10 fps if I remember correctly) - also stutter and low FPS when approaching other planes or over more dense areas.
Dynamic campaign: Yes, this one seems better I think: A more personal career mode that also looks very intuitive.
More stable? - That is almost guaranteed (at least I haven't read that it crashed when tested)

So, if you want a better career mode and a more stable game, yes this might be for you. But if you really enjoy the brutal and chaotic and realistic combat like Bob2 have, you will be disappointed.

A2A, where is "BoBIII: Wings of Glory" ?

[Eisenfaust]

PiceOfCake - you summed it up quite precisely

But "a stable game" is a real selling point in my book. It runs under windows 10 - so it also runs on my laptop. BoBII WoV does not.

And the AI has its Moments: The decisionmaking - when to engage and when to disengage leads gives you the feeling that the aviators want to fullfill their mission AND live to fight another day. This leads to believable casualty rates.

On the other hand AI Spits and Hurries do very frequent and counterintuitive neg-G maneuvers and inverted climbs which cost some of the immersion WOTR successfully creates in other areas.

So the 3 big BoB simulations out now all have their virtues and all have weaknesses...

BoB II:
+epic scale of formations
+awesome camapign system (every kill counts and is one enemy less tomorrow, the success of the raid will have consequences tomorrow as well)
+best maneuver AI - (The only AI that sometimes challenges me in a one on one situation)
-does not run under Windows 10
-graphically the least appealing (though still good enough)
-dead (no updates expected anymore - no recources directed into healing win10 issues)

WOTR:
+Immersive campaign
+great allround AI (not as good as advertised - but better than most wwII-Sim AIs I face and very immersive)
+constantly improved, very active developer team
-Hardware requirements way to high for the looks and scale of combat it offers
-flight models feel the worst of the three
-dependant on a foreign engine the developer understands quite well but cannot change (no slats on the 109 - none planned)

CLOD:
+Best Flight and especially damage models of the three
+By far the best looks
+Biggest selection of flyable planes
+huge update incoming
-worst Single Player componant (campaign, missions and AI - all lacking compared to the other two)

WOTR will get more interesting with every chapter - the battle of France very underrepresented in games - looking forward to that

When the next huge update fixes the lacking SP componant (As might be) - CLOD will become #1 for me

BoB2 still would be the allround best game for me - if it would run on Win10.

I would really love the see someday a game in BoBII style (scale, AI and strategic component) with BoX graphics and FM/DM featuring the bombing/defense of the Reich

[33lima3]

As discussed here...

https://combatace.com/forums/topic/9275 ... ent-749627

...BoB2 has been running fine for me in Win 10 and at high-to-max (except particle density) in-game settings, EXCEPT that about a third of the time and unpredictably, and regardless of in-game or video driver settings, exiting the mission produces a CTD, the infamous Alt+X, ntldll crash. Which presumably cripples the ability to play stock or squadron-based campaigns. Which is a pity, but since the real Battle was essentially episodic, the stock Historical missions enable me to fly multiple planes on either side in a realistic representation of the campaign. With the bonus of many training missions and some user-made ones, lacking only the pilot persona aspect. Which WoTR like WoFF provides, which is great, but 'immersive' to me is the big, realistic raids, the super R/T traffic including Controller, and the amazing representation of the combat zone, on top of the best in breed AI and still decent aircraft models.



If the Alt+X CTD might never be fixed, perhaps it would be feasible to take a different approach to getting more out of BoB2 with Win 10. Maybe build campaigns based on a set of scripted missions, their storyline based in turn on the real-life operations of a specific RAF squadron or Luftwaffe gruppe. For example a Spit or Hurri squadron that fought with 11 Group for a reasonable part of the Battle and reproducing the missions described in a squadron pilot's published memoirs/bio, like Al Deere's 'Nine Lives' or 'Fly for your Life about Robert Stanford-Tuck.

[PieceOfCake]

Eisenfaust - I agree with almost everything you said except a few things;

I think the flight model and engine sound is better in Bob2 than in CloD. Difficult to put my finger on it. You just feel it when you fly.
Also the particle effects is better in Bob2: explosions on grounds, when bullets hits the ground, when plane hits the water. The tracers. Smoke and hit effects on other plane. Planes burning.
It's so cool to see in the far distance burning planes falling to the water and you see that huge white splash. And they last pretty long so you get the sense of effects from the combat.

Stuff like this beats good graphics any day.

CloD simply lacks atmosphere compared to Bob2.
Also the cockpit in Bob2 feels more like a real cockpit. The colors and textures used.
Sure you have much more details in CloD, but there is something off about that cockpit. It looks too small too.
Like you are a 2 foot giant crammed inside or something

And there is one thing I hate about CloD: It's nearly impossible to spot other planes. Must be a bug in the engine or something;
I see flak very far away over Dover; I stare and stare in to the flak, around it trying to spot planes. See nothing. Flak explosions are smaller than most planes or about the same size.
Then if I am lucky I see a tiny dot between the flak moving. That is a plane? Impossible to spot if they are close to ground. Sometimes possible to see if they have blue sky or clouds behind them if you are lucky.
Never in any other flight sim I have had trouble spotting planes like in CloD. il2 BOS it's the best: When you zoom in it's easier to spot them. In CloD it's opposite; you have to zoom out in super fish lens so that the tiny dots don't drown in pixels.
For this reason I am barely playing CloD. And even on a full server with 50+ people playing it still feels lonely and you get very little action. You can fly around for maybe an hour or more without spotting any enemies.
Even with the guidance of enemy plane position; by the time you get there they are long gone.
In Bob2 you scramble to intercept and when you see a formation of hundreds of planes it's impossible not to see.

This is why I play Bob2 over CloD.

[Eisenfaust]

@PieceOfCake:
I see your point - FM and Design quality are of course a matter of taste above all.

It may also be that my opinion is shaped by the fact, that I played CLOD before I played BoB2. So for me the Emil in CLOD behaves as she should - and BoB2 comes only very near

Same with design...

Interesting point you have about the spotting because it feels opposite to me - except for whole Gruppen-size raids and above - it is obvious that the larger the formation the easier it is to spot und BoB2 ist the only game out there that offers the right size for BoB engagements...

I also like the condensation trails in BoB to spot detached escorts at the ceiling...

However since I'm usually scanning for way smaller squadrons of interceptors these factors don't apply ^^

And the single Aircraft without any marker I spot earlier in CLOD than in BoB 2...

@33lima3

You are right - the single missions do work, although you have to restard the game after each completion...

However - the best part of BoB2 to me personally is the great campaign - and to only be able to play it as a wargame without the flying is actually still surprisingly fun - but obviously not as much as being able to play the game at it's full potential.