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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:06 pm
Posts: 5
Can anyone help with the following?
1. I've noticed there seems to be a big difference in the number of RAF and LW aircraft destroyed depending on if you fly in the mission or not. For example - losses RAF 8 LW 13 when you watch the raid on the campaign map but RAF 60 LW 133 when you take control in 3D. Same raid setup on both but the tally is very different.

2. Any advice as to best position/number of escorts per bomber Gruppen?

3. When flying as bomber gunner - firing close to but not at other bombers seems to register hits on the other bombers.

4. Sometimes when shooting at enemy aircraft in 3D (RAF and LW) "phantom" aircraft seem to fall away from the target aircraft.

Any help would be greatly received, Regards,


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:20 am 
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Senior Airman
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Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:32 am
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Location: Rayleigh, Essex, England
Hi Charlie

Welcome to the Time Machine - I hope you are having a ball!

Yes, there is a difference in the number of 3D casualties in comparison with 2D. I reproduce below an explanation that Stickman gave to me which I hope is helpful. It reflects the work that people like Randy and Stickman have done and continue to do in order to improve BoB2. Here's what Stickman said:

"3D Campaign play in a phase is different than it is in phase that is played only in 2D. That is... 3D combat is very very bloody! 2D only combat much less so.

Our Campaign coder Randy, has always said that 3D combat casualties tend to be much greater than was so historically, B of B.

Randy's code changes mostly Campaign 2D code. He never had the time to really get into the 3D play code, except to fix some 3D to 2D Reports interfacing.
He could code change the 2D play casualty rates, and did so to better reflect the history that he researched.
This is the reason you may notice that 3D play is really bloody, on both sides, and 2D only play usually results with less casualties, on both sides.

We do not now have a good way to reduce 3D casualties without doing some bad things to 3D play, which BoBII Players seem to love."


I'm afraid I have never done a Luftwaffe campaign but hopefully others will respond to your detailed points.

Cheers

Lofty Anstruther DFC (Dismissed for Cowardice...... :D )

_________________
"Home and tea. For once you deserve it, well done everybody"


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:06 pm
Posts: 5
Thanks Lofty Anstruther for your reply, I've managed to find out from the manual and forums info similar to yours but you have added some clarity. I've been experimenting with different bomber/escort sizes as well. As for hitting friendly bombers I think it might be related to target size in settings so I'm going to try low size and see if that helps. Don't know about the phantom aircraft though and I've not been able to find any references to it. It doesn't happen all the time and seems to happen in any type of aircraft. I'll be merrily hosing down an enemy and another aircraft seems to fall out of the aircraft I'm shooting at! kind regards, Charlie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:24 am 
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BDG
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Charlie921,

Ah! A LuftWaffe Player. :)
I could write a book on BoBII LuftWaffe Tactics and Strategy. I shall try to answer your questions in the next days.

Quote:
As for hitting friendly bombers I think it might be related to target size in settings so I'm going to try low size and see if that helps.


Yes. Low Target Size is the only realistic setting. Higher Target Size settings may result in unwanted collateral damage!
Please use the Low Target Size. Medium & High Target Size settings are for kids, or the blind.
Even so.. as a bomber gunner I have SHOT some of my fellows in the heat of action. I try to pull the trigger only when the gun is pointed at the enemy, and only at the enemy.

Quote:
4. Sometimes when shooting at enemy aircraft in 3D (RAF and LW) "phantom" aircraft seem to fall away from the target aircraft.


I am not sure about this. I don't see these phantoms.
I have seen wings, stabilizers, and rudders blown off when I shoot an aircraft.
I also see "phantom" aircraft at low level that prove to be aircraft shadows. I turn OFF aircraft shadows, as I don't like that confusion.

Quote:
1. I've noticed there seems to be a big difference in the number of RAF and LW aircraft destroyed depending on if you fly in the mission or not. For example - losses RAF 8 LW 13 when you watch the raid on the campaign map but RAF 60 LW 133 when you take control in 3D. Same raid setup on both but the tally is very different.


Yes.
Lofty Anstruther has answered your question properly.
3D air to air fighter combat is very much more BLOODY than 2D combat.
It may be too much bloody than historical.
The 3D BoBII Artificial Intelligent pilots/aircraft were not made to be all rookie idiots. Depending on SKILL level, some of them can be quite dangerous animals!

The same applies to bombing.
2D bombing results in about one/half of the bombs being duds! Very little damage. :evil:
The same bombing Raid in 3D.. results in all of the bombs actually exploding! BOOM!
However.. when bombing in 3D, you actually have to line up the RAID for the best bomb lay angle for maximum effect, boom boom boom!
This takes Intelligence on how the Target is actually laid out. (The Germans knew, and had maps for this during the 1930s)
I remade most all of these Targets for v.2.13, historically, and made them all bigger and harder to destroy.
So I have the maps. Aligned as to north & south.
Took me 5 years of historical research to reproduce them all.

These map layouts are super secret, as no one but you or me actually seems to want to bomb England! :wink:
I shall give you the Fighter Factory layouts, as they are the only things you really need to bomb.. to put the RAF down on it's knees.

Always cut off the enemy's supply!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:26 am 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:06 pm
Posts: 5
Hi stickman, thanks for your advice.
I know what you mean about bombing angles, I've been playing B17II The Mighty Eighth for years and I use target recon photos by a guy called Doc who kindly sent them to me a few years back! It really makes a difference in that game to the level of damage inflicted on a target.

I'm planning to fly some of my own recon missions in BOB and take some screen shots of some of the targets. I've been sticking to aircraft factories mainly, do you recommend bombing just the manufacturing facilities or parts and armaments factories too? I was also hitting some of the airfields but since reading the forums it seems counter-productive as the RAF just move their aircraft to 13 group. Kind regards, Charlie.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:28 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8754
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Charlie921,

Quote:
2. Any advice as to best position/number of escorts per bomber Gruppen?


Yes. This is an easy question to answer, after attacking Britain many times in BoBII.

-------

The Gruppe (Group) was the standard Tactical Operational Unit that the LW deployed on any attack.
Not the piddly Staffel (Squadron) unit level.

UNITE! Always attack with superior force upon the enemy!
3:1 fighter to fighter odds must be achieved in our favor!

My usual RAID to achieve this is this:
- 1 Bomber Gruppe.
- 1 Fighter Gruppe Escort CLOSE. (Above)
- 2 Fighter Gruppe Escort DETACHED. (Late)

This is a formula that works well 90% of the time, and that I religiously use. It works! :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:09 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Charlie921,

Quote:
I've been sticking to aircraft factories mainly, do you recommend bombing just the manufacturing facilities or parts and armaments factories too?


Charlie, you have an intuitive Go For The Throat wolfish mentality! :twisted:
1. Destroy the fighter Assembly factories firstly.
2. Destroy the fighter Parts factories secondarily.
3. Destroy the Armaments factories lastly, and take away their guns and ammo!

You may have to sacrifice II/ZG2 and/or the I/ZG26 Yvrench escort boys to smash the new nest of Spitfire production at Castle Bromwich, early on in July..
but.. some sacrifice may be needed to plug up that rat hole, before they breed a new population.

------

The instructions for destruction are all in the v2.13 Manual. There is nothing secret there.

"Aircraft production related factories (assembly, component, armaments) are fragile.
They can bounce back from minor raids, though cumulative damage or one or two heavy raids can destroy them.
If a fighter related factory is destroyed, its production will be dispersed to remote locations.
This dispersed production takes time to set up and is less efficient than a dedicated factory facility.
A destroyed factory's dispersed production will ramp up over a period of roughly four weeks and reach a maximum of 60% of its former rate.
Thus for each week after a factory is destroyed, dispersed production will add 15% of its former rate.
Dispersed factories are immune from attack as there is now no way for the Germans to know what to bomb."

Image


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:18 pm 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 8754
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Rules of Engagement

Standard RAF interceptor "Rules Of Engagement".

1. For every bomber Staffel in a Raid, the RAF will send one Squadron to attack it.
The numbers of escorting fighters do not matter. (this may not be good, but it has been coded so since original Rowan BoB)

This rule is strict, and I have never seen the RAF not follow this 1 Squadron per 1 bomber Staffel ratio response,
until the RAF does not have enough ready Squadrons to do so.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Standard LW escort "Rules Of Engagement".

1. Close escorts.
Close escorts usually behave well using the standard Rules of Engagement.
These rules are (assuming a full Gruppe of LW escorts):
- When the first RAF intercepting Squadron attacks a Raid, one LW escort Staffel will peel off and engage it. The other two LW escort Staffeln shall remain with the bombers, awaiting further attacks by other RAF Squadrons.
- When a second RAF intercepting Squadron attacks the Raid, one LW escort Staffel will peel off and engage it. The last LW escort Staffel shall remain with the bombers, awaiting further attacks by other RAF Squadrons.
- When a third RAF intercepting Squadron attacks the Raid, the third and last LW escort Staffel will peel off and engage it.

2. Detached escorts.
Detached escorts usually behave just the same as Close escorts do, following the same Rules of Engagement on a 1 Staffel per 1 RAF Squadron response.

However.. this is in ADDITION to what the Close escorts do.
That is, if a Raid of one Gruppe of bombers, escorted by one fighter escort Gruppe Close, and two fighter escort Gruppen Detached,
is attacked by an intercepting RAF Squadron,
then one Staffel from each escort Gruppe should engage it. You can get 3:1 fighter per fighter odds this way. Usually.

----------

When I say usually in the cases above, that means about 75% of time, that the standard Rules of Engagement are followed.
It is not written on stone upon the holy coded tablets that escorts will behave according to Rules.
You never really know what the escorts will do. They usually behave as expected, tho.

Note 1:
It should be noted that Detached escorts have been greatly improved with v2.13 over previous versions. They now can actually be used effectively.
However the code for Detached escorts is not as good as should be.
They still tend to get too much detached separation from the bombers unless you order them as Late.
A Detached (Late) escort will usually end up near enough to the bombers to engage the RAF interceptors.

Note 2:
Our coder did this in his words after he easily fixed the LW Rendezvous Bug:
"LW escort rendezvous now works. Coded in a 5% chance that a LW escort Virtual Unit will take off at a wrong time, though".
With my long time testing v2.13, I found a failure rate of 8%.
OK, but you do not have to accept this failure rate at all, as Commander.
After I order Raids, I always check the orders given to my units.
If my Operations officer gives me Raid plan to bomb the Itchen River factories, and Orleans Bricy Ju88s are to take off at 1400 hours, and the III/JG27 escort at Carquebut is taking off at 1400 hours, too..
I'll give him a serious asschewing and tell him to fix it!

Always check the take off times in Route, and double check the escort positions in Task before approving any Raids for launch.
I do not consider this cheating. As Commander it is my job to do so!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:49 pm 
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BDG
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Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
LW Campaign Bombing Bugs.

1. 3D. The dive bomber's "I cannot see the Target!" BUG.

Ach! I have been complaining about this for 17 years.

Stukas and Me110s dive bombing will try to hit all Target elements at a Target, even if all the buildings (I call these Target elements) are spread out in a wide area.
Airfields are an exception, as they only go after the Hangers and Workshops Target elements.
Dive bombers work the best, except that they are only good at bombing untouched virgin Targets! :x

Here is why:
If they destroy or even damage the.. very first listed (Target Central) target element, on the Target menu/dialog,
then the entire Target is considered destroyed, no Target diamond will show up, and then on subsequent dive bombing attacks, the dive bombers will say "I cannot see the Target!"
And refuse to bomb the other 15 or 40 other undamaged target elements, and go home doing nothing.

Ah, for chrissakes.

Level bombers in 3D will ALWAYS lay bombs on a Target no matter how badly it is already damaged. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. 2D. The Target Is Critically Damaged (NOT!) bug.

Not sure if this an actual BUG or another attempt to replicate the "fog of war" and lack of Recon Intelligence.
Whatever, but is an infuriating road block that denies bombers to be able to damage a Target.
No further damage inflicted. Nothing hit at all, even with a full Geshwader (Wing) of 90 He111s dropping 720 bombs on a small Target. :roll:
0. Empty set. Waste of time.

Apparently this is related to the dive bomber BUG of "I cannot see the Target because it is already (supposedly) destroyed!" BUG. It no longer exists! :roll:
However, then you send in a 3D Raid of level bombers and they will actually see it and drop more bombs on it, and damage it further. Good 3D lads!

Now, thankfully, if a Target is considered as having only Heavy or Light damage, then all bombers, even dive bombers, will consider it still alive and will bomb and damage it.
Well, there is that OK.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. 3D. "Stuka Staffel Fails To Release Bombs" BUG.

Ah, back to the buggy dive bombers.

Well.. This is silly. When the Stukas do actually see a virgin Target and dive upon said Target OK,
I often (about 30% of the time) see one Stuka Staffel of the Gruppe dive on Target OK, but none of the Staffel actually release bombs.
What the hell? Is there something wrong with our bomb release carriage mechanisms! If so we should fix that!

Hey, I understand that the LW dropped a huge number of dud unexploded bombs on Britain during The War.
The German Nazis were truly evil but I don't think that they did that intentionally. The duds were just manufacturing defects.
(how many times, 35 years as an Instrument & Electrical Mechanic have I installed a new instrument fresh from the factory, and the damned thing does not work!)
These unexploded bombs did create further Hell & Havoc. Nobody wanted to get close to the damned things!

>
Sgt Pilot Harold Orchard RAF:
"Manston Station's own Record says that the attack happened at 1250hrs, and involved about 15 ME110's and some Heinkels. About 150 bombs were dropped, leaving some 100 craters.
Two hangars were damaged and a workshop destroyed. Unfortunately, a civilian clerk in the workshop was killed.
The Squadron returned to Manston the next day to find all the bomb craters had been repaired by the Pioneer Corps, although some craters remained near the edge of the airfield, which were close to unexploded bombs.
Manston was to be attacked six more times in the next two weeks, causing more casualties, and eventually leading to the decision to evacuate all but essential personnel.
As the attacks increased, repairs were not made so quickly, often due to the presence of unexploded bombs,
and on 29th August Churchill visited Manston and was horrified to find bomb craters caused four days previously had still not been repaired,
prompting him to suggest to the Secretary of State for Air that a mobile team be set up deal with such repairs, and local contractors be asked to provide stock-piles of materials at each airfield."
<

Anyway, I want the bombs to actually work as intended, and explode!
A 33% failure rate of bombs not exploding or releasing, is unacceptable!
-- The US Navy in 1942 had a 33% failure rate for their torpedoes to explode, hitting full on broadside on a ship's hull, all that year! :evil: Took them awhile to fix the damned things. --

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This talk about land mines leads me to explain about KampfGeschwader 4.

KG4 is still listed in the BoBII Order of Battle, but it will never activate, and cannot be used.
KG4 was dedicated as a sea-mine layer. Laying mines at the North Sea approaches to the Channel.
OK. You will not need them, as you have plenty of bombers to use!

Since I have been devoleping BoBII historical ground Targets and aircraft gauges for many years now.. I had to see where these Sea Mines that the Germans laid (sea borne and air borne) in 1940 were.
I found this map at the Axis History forum, which holds a lot of credible and true information I believe. Yeah, I am a history nut, too. I love these History forums.

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:31 am 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:06 pm
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Wow, thanks stickman, some really useful info here! I've just finished a nightshift so once I've had some sleep I'll go through this in detail and see what I can use to improve my game :D Kind regards, Charlie


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