Mapping a Joystick help pse....

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zl2bmh
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Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by zl2bmh »

Hello All.

I have a number of weaknesses with gaming, the main problem is mapping a (in this case) Joystick. I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
With BoB II WoV manual (p26-33) it tells you how to go about it, but IMHO not for newbies. I go to 'express' as directed, then that's when I fall apart. I have 9 spare buttons to map, in particular I would like to map the rudder and elevator pitch.

Can some kind person please tell me in chronological order what to do.

Thank you,
Regards,
zl2bmh.
Computer:W10 (updated from W7), 64bit, Quad Core, Intel i7 920 2.67Ghz , 12GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 570, 24" Widescreen 1080p full HD Monitor 1920 x 1080 Res.

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vramesh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by vramesh »

Dear zl2bmh,

Let me try to help you with this.
"Express" approach may not always work as expected because what WE assume as one Joystick axis may be detected differently by the PC.
For example, we may think that the rudder is a joystick's Z axis, however it may be detected by windows (and by extension BoB2) as RZ! Similarly the throttle may be detected as slider0 etc. and hence the default axis assignments used in "Express" approach may not always work. (I think, BoB2 picks up these values from DeviceDefaults.txt file. If your joystick doesn't belong to the family of devices mentioned in this file then, chances are that the express install assignments may not work as expected. However, I could be wrong.)

Anyway, let's use the "Custom" approach to set the axis shall we? It works for me, so hopefully this should work for you too. OK. Here goes:

1) Start BoB2
2) Select Options-> Controls
3) If Express is ticked, check if your Logitech Extreme 3d Pro shows up in the "Input Device" box. If it does not, then select it. It can be selected by clicking the red triangle shaped arrow in the box. We did this to see if BoB2 can see/use your joystick.*
4) Mapping Axis from Joystick: Now please select Custom. You should see a table with three columns, namely "In-game Axis", "Assigned Axis" and a third column that has no heading. It is there to display the deadzone, saturation, invert (reverse) axis and filtering. Deadzone, saturation and filtering values dictate how much the in-game joystick moves based on a real-world joystick movement. "Reverse" inverts the axis movement.
5) To assign elevator axis, click on the white text under "Assigned axis" column corresponding the Elevator row. It will change colour from white to red to indicate that it has been selected. Red color means that BoB2 is actively listening/polling for your input. Whichever control you move next will get picked up by BoB2.
6) Now move the corresponding axis of your choice in the joystick -- usually you'd move it first up and then down for elevator (similarly, first left then right while setting up aileron, first twist left then twist right for rudder, first increase then decrease for throttle)
If BoB2 picked it up then the red text will change to a white coloured "Joystick1 Y" ( or probably "Logitech Extreme 3d Pro Y") or something similar to that corresponding to the axis you had just wiggled. If you moved the wrong axis (or accidentally moved the mouse), simply click on the "Clear Axis" text at the bottom and go to step 5.
7) Repeat steps 5 and 6 for aileron, rudder and throttle.
8 ) If you wish to invert any axis or modify filter or saturation values, then select the white text corresponding to the axis from "In-game axis" (for eg. click on white coloured "Elevator" text to change values for elevator) and modify these values that show up in the third column.
9) Mapping the 9 spare buttons: Click on "Key Mapping" orange coloured text. A blueish pop-up window with two columns called "Command" and "Keys" will open with a red tick mark on "All".
10) The key commands are grouped into "All", "Flight", "View" and "Misc" so that they can be easily located. Select some category to which you wish to assign a spare button. Let us pick the "Clear" command. (You'd better map this key to somewhere easily accessible. Buddye's AI planes are very effective in getting on to your tail fast and you'll need your wingman's (also Buddye's AI) help to clear it :-P). This command is grouped under "All" and "Misc" category. You can select either as it makes no difference in key assignment. Let's select "Misc". You can see that it is mapped to the / key by default. Click on the white text (i.e. /) under "Keys" column corresponding to "Clear" row. You should see a white text appear at the bottom that reads something like "Polling Inputdevices...please press the button you want to map" etc. Now click on the spare joystick button. This should open a confirmation box that states whether you wish to assign that button to Clear command. Click yes. If you pressed the wrong key by mistake, then click on the yellow coloured "clear" text that is next to the "cancel" text and go to step 10.
11) Repeat step 10 for all the other 8 spare buttons to assign them different commands of your choice.
12) Click on the yellow "save" text. (Always click save. Do not forget.)
13) Once done, click on the tick mark on the top right corner of the blueish pop-up window.
14) Click on the big "Continue" text on the top of the screen. If you had forgetten to save the key mapping, BoB2 is nice enough to remind you to save ;-)
15) Open an Instant Action landing session and test your newly assigned joystick inputs. If unsatisfactory then exit the session and then go to step 2 and remap axis and button assignment.
16) That's it! You have now configured BoB2 to use your logitech joystick to control the aircrafts.

The manual has good screenshots and instructions on how to set the axis and assign buttons to commands. Could you please tell us what we need to include in the manual to make it more newbie friendly?

*If your joystick is not listed there , please check if it is properly connected to your PC and that there are no loose contacts and got to step 1.
If it is connected and it still does not show here, please check if the joystick driver is up-to-date. If not, then please update it and then go to step 1.
If you are very confident that the Joystick is proper and its driver is up-to-date and BoB2 just fails to recognize it (a highly unlikely event), I guess we are SOL and may have to learn how to fly with mouse and keyboard :-( (or another joystick depending on budget and then go to step 1). Trust me, it is no fun flying with only mouse and keyboard. I play 2d only or fly as gunner whenever I don't/can't take my trusty original Xbox Duke controller with me.

Also please note that BoB2.exe always checks for connected input devices before loading the keymapping and starting up. So, if you start BoB2 without connecting your Logitech joystick, your Axis mappings may be reset to default. So, two things that we shouldn't forget are:
1. Saving the axis and key mapping and
2. Plug in the joystick and check it before starting BoB2.

Hope this helps.

By the way, I think you guys have a nice cricket team. Tough luck in the 50 over CWC finals though.
--
Vasanth
Veni, vidi, velcro

I came, I saw, I stuck around...

zl2bmh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by zl2bmh »

vramesh.

Once again I have to thank you very much for your excellent help. Now, I fully understand how it's done. Set out as you have done makes it so easy to understand and now I wonder why I got the wobbles over mapping. You have shown how easy it really is.

As a matter of interest, my joystick is shown under 'express', so it does recognise it, which is good.

Just one question if I may, if I want to map a key for say, rudder trim, do I press 'rudder trim' then press the corresponding button I want, or just press the key that's already shown then press the key I want.

Once again thank you, it's people like you who give their private time so readily that keeps blokes like me in this great sim.

Regards,
Jim zl2bmh.

I MISSED SEEING THIS EDIT BUTTON SO I FOLLOWED ON ANTHER REPLY...POST UNDER THIS.....
Last edited by zl2bmh on 25 May 2016, 02:25, edited 1 time in total.
Computer:W10 (updated from W7), 64bit, Quad Core, Intel i7 920 2.67Ghz , 12GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 570, 24" Widescreen 1080p full HD Monitor 1920 x 1080 Res.

zl2bmh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by zl2bmh »

VRamesh.

I'm sorry, I forgot to add this as well, but there was no edit button. I FOUND EDIT BUT TO LATE, SORRY :(

While I was mapping I noticed something I hope you can tell me about.

I mapped, under 'CUSTOM' then FLIGHT....Elevator trim down...b6, Elevator trim up....b7. Ok, so I mapped those two, then after saving and getting out of the program I noticed again under CUSTOM Pitch Trim, Bank Trim and Yaw Trim. I tried to map those thinking that might be better than what I have just done ( Elevator Trim Down etc) but I could not change them. Are they unchangible?

Then just one other thing :roll: , I went to Logitech to calibrate my joystick and noted what number each button is, yet when I map a button it shows b7 when going by the Logitech calibrate numbers it is shown as b8. Although it's no big deal, it only brings tears to my glass eye, is this sometimes the norm with this joystick.

So sorry to throw this at you, but if there is any other person who can take the pressure off VRamesh, then please do. Regards Jim ZL2BMH.
Computer:W10 (updated from W7), 64bit, Quad Core, Intel i7 920 2.67Ghz , 12GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 570, 24" Widescreen 1080p full HD Monitor 1920 x 1080 Res.

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vramesh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by vramesh »

Dear zl2bmh,

I am glad to be of some help! :D
We have a sloka (a prayer) in sanskrit that ends with:
|| परोपकारं इदं शरीरं ||
|| paropakaaram idham shariiram ||
It means "life is meant for doing service to others".

Hope you were able to configure your joystick.
Just one question if I may, if I want to map a key for say, rudder trim, do I press 'rudder trim' then press the corresponding button I want, or just press the key that's already shown then press the key I want
You should left-click on the text representing the key that is already assigned.
By default Rudder trim is assigned to keyboard and as follows in the KeyMapping window:

Code: Select all

Command         | Keys
-------------------------------
RUDTRIMDOWN     | Ctrl+Delete
RUDTRIMUP       | Ctrl+Page Down
For example, to assign RUDTRIMDOWN to Joystick Button 5, one would not press "Ctrl" & "Delete" keys on the keyboard, instead, one would left-click on the white coloured "Ctrl+Delete" text with mouse. It would then turn into red colour and display a "Polling inputdevices...". Then one would press Button #5 on the Joystick. If BoB2 picked it up, one would see the red text turn into a white coloured "Joystick Button 5" (or "Logitech Extreme 3d Pro Button 5" or something similar).
I mapped, under 'CUSTOM' then FLIGHT....Elevator trim down...b6, Elevator trim up....b7. Ok, so I mapped those two, then after saving and getting out of the program I noticed again under CUSTOM Pitch Trim, Bank Trim and Yaw Trim. I tried to map those thinking that might be better than what I have just done ( Elevator Trim Down etc) but I could not change them. Are they unchangible?
No. They can be changed. Rudder trim can be mapped either to a joystick axis or to Keyboard keys and/or Joystick buttons. Axis mapping is done under "Custom" section. Key mapping is done under "Key Mapping" section. I think joystick axis inputs take precedence/override any key/button assignment.
Some joystick systems have the luxury of a lot of spare axes and buttons. Obviously, mapping trim to an axis allows finer control than that offered by a keyboard key or a joystick button. I am not sure if the joystick that you have has enough spare axes input to map trim. Anyway, if you want to map a joystick axis to rudder trim, just left-click on the white coloured "Keyboard" text in the Axis section under Custom corresponding to row "Yaw Trim". Then it will turn red. Then wiggle the joystick axis that you wish to use for trim. Voilà!

As for the b7 / b8, your joystick is fine. Its just that when counting, normal people go "1, 2, 3,..." whereas computer programmers go "0, 1, 2,..." :-P

Hope this helps.
--
Vasanth
Veni, vidi, velcro

I came, I saw, I stuck around...

zl2bmh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by zl2bmh »

Vasanth.

Again you are an absolute gem. Thank you Vasanth I am so very grateful to you. I was lucky enough to have met another person of your ilk by the name of Kylania. He like you gave me so much of his time when he could have been doing other things. I 'love' your little proverb, how true. If I had to have a guess at you origin I am sure you'd of heard of Sachin Tendulker, right. :D (of course I'm probably wrong like most things :lol:

Again thank you very very much.

Regards, Kia Ora, Jim zl2bmh.
Computer:W10 (updated from W7), 64bit, Quad Core, Intel i7 920 2.67Ghz , 12GB Ram, Nvidia GTX 570, 24" Widescreen 1080p full HD Monitor 1920 x 1080 Res.

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vramesh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by vramesh »

Dear zl2bmh,

Awww, please! Don't mention it! The pleasure was mine.
If there is anything else then please do let us know here. We'll be glad to help.
If I had to have a guess at you origin I am sure you'd of heard of Sachin Tendulker, right.
"I am from India and I bleed blue. If cricket is my religion then Sachin is my God" :D


--
Vasanth
Veni, vidi, velcro

I came, I saw, I stuck around...

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Trumper
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by Trumper »

I used to use a saitek x 52 and mapped the rudder and aileron trims to a slider which gave you more control,smooth and constantly variable movement.

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vramesh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by vramesh »

Dear Trumper,

Ah! The X-52. That is a sweet HOTAS joystick! X52 was the biggest (and very expensive to us 3rd world dwellers) hardware that I have ever sunk my hard-earned moolah into for playing a flight-sim. I got it along with the rudder pedals and was about to invest in Track IR too before the finance minister (aka mother) threatened to hit my behind for a Gayle-esque sixer and put an end to it. So it was just the joystick, throttle quadrant and rudder pedals. Had loads of fun using it in IL21946 and BoB2 (for a little while).
For me, at present, the set is too bulky and takes up too much desk space to my liking. Someday, I'll find the time (and $$) to build a sim-pit out of old PVC pipes, seat-cushion and an old LCD monitor. And on that day I'll use the X52 set there. Sadly now the X52 set is sleeping in the attic gathering dust :-(

Until then, I'll be using my Xbox Duke controller. Once upon a time, I hacked a Xbox Duke controller and changed the connector to USB port so that I could use it to play PC games.

No denying the fact that assigning an input to a joystick axis is orders of magnitude better than mapping to just keyboard or buttons. However, I have found a close second-best solution.

Duke controller, along with three nice programs called XBCD, PPJOY and GlovePIE, is surprisingly versatile. Would you believe if I told you that I have mapped elevator, aileron, rudder, throttle, prop-pitch axis, elevator trim and aileron trim AND mouse-look? All on that joystick?
Here is how I did it:
1) Created a virtual joystick with ppjoy with all the necessary axis
2) Wrote a feeder program using GlovePIE which maps the Duke to the virtual joystick
  • a) Duke's left thumbstick is mapped to elevator and aileron axes on the virtual joystick
  • b) Duke's right thumbstick is mapped to mouseLook-x and mouseLook-y
  • c) Duke's triggers are two halves of the rudder axis
  • d) GlovePIE code that converts the Duke's black and white buttons to gradually increase/decrease virtual joystick's prop-pitch axis
  • e) GlovePIE code that converts the Duke's X and B buttons to gradually increase/decrease virtual joystick's throttle axis
  • f) Duke's B is mapped to fire selected weapon
  • g) Duke's A is mapped to toggle gunsight view
  • h) Left thumbstick button to cycle through guns, cannons, both.
  • i) Right thumbstick button to toggle inside/outside view
  • j) GlovePIE code that calls the "Clear?/Clear" command when Duke's A button is double-clicked
  • k) Duke's D-pad up to Toggle gear
  • l) Duke's D-pad left to flaps down
  • m) Duke's D-pad right to flaps up
  • n) Duke's D-pad down to toggle map
  • o) Duke's Select button to left wheel brake
  • p) Duke's Start button to right wheel brake
  • For everything else, I use the keyboard and mouse.
3) Selected the virtual joystick in BoB2 Custom mapping screen.

The Duke's left thumbstick lost a bit of its "spring-action" due to wear-and-tear. Hence, it doesn't always return to top dead center upon releasing it. There is some amount of free-play in its rest position (near the center). I used this to my advantage and it became my aileron and elevator trim! Since I usually fly the 109, no need for a rudder trim. Plus, the 109 settles down nicely (with the slip-ball close to center) at ~400 Kmph IAS without need for any rudder trim.
Now its just like using X52. Only, its now much much smaller in size and infinitely more portable :-D
--
Vasanth
Veni, vidi, velcro

I came, I saw, I stuck around...

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PV
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by PV »

Note, regarding trim, the RAF fighters have rudder and elevator trim,
the 109 has aileron and elevator trim, the stuka has elevator trim,
only the 110 has all three rudder aileron and elevator. This is historical
modelling.

Vasanth, regarding joysticks, I used to have a µ$ Sidewinder, not the
highly acclaimed FF Sidewinder II, just a basic model, with X, Y, throttle
and fire only. I found the return springs to be too strong to be comfortable,
so I took it apart and snipped about 1/4 off both the X and Y pairs. It
then became very comfortable, and I found I preferred laying my hand
on the base, and working the stick with just my thumb and forefinger,
sliding them along the base with the stick between them ( I would use
the space bar with my other had as the fire control). I then had
extremely precise feedback on the location of my fingers relative to the
heel of my hand which I kept stationary resting on the base, and this
allowed fantastic control of the aircraft. That joystick died an untimely
death, shorted out when a cat, jealous of my attention to the inanimate
monitor, bit through the cable to get my attention - it worked, but not
as she hoped. I then acquired my current Saitek Evo force, which is
serviceable, but I have concluded from my experience that the ideal
joystick would be a very compliant post about the size of a matchstick,
solidly anchored to a plate on which my palm would rest. All the other
joystick functions would be handled by some other device for the other
hand, leaving the steering hand to specialize in one thing only.

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Trumper
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by Trumper »

My x52 was 2nd hand and now also sits in the loft :(.The switches have started becoming erratic and to be honest i haven't "flown" for 3+ years.

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vramesh
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by vramesh »

Dear Trumper,

The worst part of it is that, the nice soft rubber coating on the joystick and buttons become a dark sticky-icky goo. Tried to repair by dusting it with talcum powder. It helped remove the stickiness but, the damage is done.
i haven't "flown" for 3+ years.
:-(
If possible, please try to carve some time for BoB2 and enjoy the new contributions (by both BDG and subscribers) first-hand :)

############################################################################

Dear PV,
at ~400 Kmph IAS without need for any rudder trim
:oops: Oops! My mistake. I should have written rudder input. You are correct. There is no rudder trim in the 109.

Hope your cat is doing okay and your Evo is now chew-proof :-)
very compliant post about the size of a matchstick,
solidly anchored to a plate on which my palm would rest
Maybe a second-hand fighting stick controller like this:

Image

could be modified or could source parts for the project and a combination of ppjoy and glovepie could solve the axis mapping and axis sensitivity curves.

--
Vasanth
Veni, vidi, velcro

I came, I saw, I stuck around...

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stickman
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by stickman »

There is no rudder trim in the 109.
Historically there was only a "fixed" rudder trim tab on the rudder. This could only be changed on the ground.
Presumably set for easier cruise flying.

However, a Player can make the Me109 have adjustable rudder trim.
This can be edited in the models folder, in the BF109E4.ACM file.
This is my line in that file:
Trim { 1024 0 8192 } # elevator aileron rudder

The 8192 is rudder trim. A lower number will make it less sensitive to input. You can try any number until you have it working OK for you.

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PV
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Re: Mapping a Joystick help pse....

Post by PV »

vramesh wrote:Dear Trumper,

The worst part of it is that, the nice soft rubber coating on the joystick and buttons become a dark sticky-icky goo. Tried to repair by dusting it with talcum powder. It helped remove the stickiness but, the damage is done.
Yeah, isn't that nasty? I have a few items, some thumb drives and
an LED flashlight, with that problem. I've had to scrape it off with
a sharp plastic edge from wherever my skin was in contact, or
where it sat in full sunlight. I imagine what happened is someone
devised this surface, got all excited, and marketed it everywhere,
without doing any long term aging tests. All sorts of equipment
manufacturers went for it, and got caught. I bet it isn't used any
more.

[...]

Dear PV,
at ~400 Kmph IAS without need for any rudder trim
:oops: Oops! My mistake. I should have written rudder input. You are correct. There is no rudder trim in the 109.

Hope your cat is doing okay and your Evo is now chew-proof :-)
It was getting on a decade ago, and that cat is gone now. I
can't actually remember now which one it was, there were
several, and all were nominally owned by my son, who
was in the process of migrating away from home, so the
animals tended to get left with me for some periods of time.
No animals left here now except me.
very compliant post about the size of a matchstick,
solidly anchored to a plate on which my palm would rest
Maybe a second-hand fighting stick controller like this:

Image

could be modified or could source parts for the project and a combination of ppjoy and glovepie could solve the axis mapping and axis sensitivity curves.
Yes, I've thought about devising something, there are actually
little component mini X-Y joysticks you can buy, but I don't have
the time nor energy these days to undertake such a project.

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